National Defence Committee on March 3rd, 2021

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay.

[Gary Walbourne]

That was the way we handled those complaints when they came to the office.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Let me take you to the same appearance, Mr. Walbourne, in 2014. Our colleague Mr. Bezan asked you this at the time:

I understand and I appreciate that sexual assault is a criminal investigation that has to be left to the police officials and authorities, and then ultimately the judicial system to sort out.

You also mentioned the concern that some people don't come forward on sexual assault or harassment because of revictimization.

What about those victims? What role does your office have in dealing with the victims after an assault has taken place, especially as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?

You responded at the time with this: “those types of cases are not handled by our office. They are handed off to the proper authorities.”

Again, the phrase “sexual harassment” has been added here.

Would you agree that the evidence shows that you knew that the correct investigative body for these types of allegations was not the minister?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm not sure I understand the context of your question.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Well, on an allegation of “sexual assault or harassment”—I'm quoting our colleague who's present with us here—you said that those cases were not handled by your office but handed off to “the proper authorities”. So why would you go to the minister with an allegation of this sort?

[Gary Walbourne]

It goes to the type of complaint you receive. This was an informal allegation against the chief of the defence staff, which I was given evidence to corroborate that the allegation did have merit. I was not given authority by the victim to do an investigation. They only came to speak to me after an assurance of confidentiality, which was exactly the same thing I asked of the minister.

I think your reading of my testimony in 2014 is a little myopic. I think the conversation was much bigger in that committee meeting. It went on through many, many things. I think that question may have been an end run.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Walbourne.

Let me take you to 2015 and a news release from your office:

...the Department of National Defence and the government of the day negotiated a mandate that excluded the powers necessary to look into individual sexual harassment and assault cases.

That's directly from your office.

I ask you the same question.

[Gary Walbourne]

Again, can you give me some context?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Well, sir, it's your news release. It seems fairly broad. It's a mandate negotiated with the government of the day, the Department of National Defence, to give “a mandate that excluded the powers necessary to look into...sexual harassment or assault”, and you went to the minister. We would like to know why.

[Gary Walbourne]

I went to the minister in 2014 or 2018? Which period do you mean?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I mean with respect to 2018.

[Gary Walbourne]

With respect to 2018, I think I have explained it, but let me try one more time. I was approached by a member of the Canadian Armed Forces on an allegation of inappropriate sexual behaviour against the chief of the defence staff. They asked me for confidentiality, so once that is asked for and granted, it limits what I can or can't do.

I think my comment of 2014 was much broader than one particular case. It talked about a mandate and the right resources and tools to do a job. I'd have to go back to read the article to get the right context.

However, these investigations are determined by the victim who comes forward. If someone asks for confidentiality and does not want to be revictimized, then I don't let that happen.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Walbourne.

Let me just briefly take you back to a comment you made earlier in this session. You said you wanted to be able to tell the complainant that she has been heard. Under subsection 21(1), which was raised by my colleague earlier, is it your assessment that the case that was brought to you would require a thorough investigation to do it justice, irrespective of the preference of the complainant?

[Gary Walbourne]

I don't think we can have a conversation irrespective of the complainant. That is the problem. We sometimes forget about who the victims are in these circumstances. I don't think I can even answer that question, because we don't make decisions irrespective of the victim.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

No, but what I'm getting at, Mr. Walbourne—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. I'm sorry, but your time is up, Mr. Spengemann.

Thank you very much.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, the floor is yours.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Once more, Mr. Walbourne, thank you for joining us today.

You told us that you were shocked to learn that the Privy Council had been made aware.

Given that you had told the Minister that this complaint was confidential and informal, did you expect more discretion from him?

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, as a direct report to the minister and also as someone classified as a special adviser to the minister, I went to him. I told him that what I had received was in confidence. I asked him for the same thing. I assumed, maybe naively, that I would receive the same type of respect that I had afforded to the victim who had come forward.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

As I understand it, you believe that you did not get that respect. Is that correct?

[Gary Walbourne]

First of all, I wasn't looking for respect. I was looking for confidentiality, and no, I did not receive the confidentiality I requested.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

When the Minister appeared, he told us that he could not confirm the exact moment when he learned of these allegations because it would have an impact on the current investigation into the allegations against Mr. Vance.

In your opinion, if the Minister told us when he became aware of the allegations against General Vance, what would the impact on the current investigation be?

[Gary Walbourne]

I really have no answer for that. I don't see how they would impact it.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

What did you do after the Privy Council's call about the allegations?