Mm-hmm.
Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Mm-hmm.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
So is there anyone else in your office who looked into this complaint?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No. When I met with the complainant, the first thing they demanded was an assurance of confidentiality, which I granted to the person. When I met with them and had the conversation, it was very apparent to me that this victim was looking for some protection, so I did not share the allegations or the evidence with anyone else in the office.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Did you take the complaint and allegations to the military police?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No, I did not.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Why didn't you go to the police? Isn't that the normal flow of events?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
It is not at all.
As I've said, the ombudsman's office was created to handle exactly this, and sexual assault and sexual harassment and are two different things, though in the same vein. Sexual harassment was handled by our office—we found many ways to deal with sexual harassment. Sexual assault I had a duty to report. Those things would have been taken to other authorities.
This particular complaint came to me under my assurance of confidentiality. One thing I do when someone presents himself or herself is to make sure I ask them “what does your future look like?” I'm a firm believer that victims of this type of behaviour should be allowed to self-actualize what their future is going to be.
This person asked—not only asked but demanded—that I respect the confidentiality, and I did just that.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
Why would you take this complaint to someone who does not do investigations? Surely it's understood that a political office does not do investigations.
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
The minister holds many powers under the National Defence Act and has levers he can pull far, far above my pay grade. I went to the minister, as his direct report, looking for advice and guidance on what to do next. I felt that this was a very major issue.
When we're talking about the chief of the defence staff, who other than the minister should I speak to? He has the powers, under the National Defence Act, to take many actions. I was looking for advice and guidance.
I wanted to go back to this complainant and say, “You have been heard. I've taken your complaint to the highest levels of the organization.” That's what I was hoping to be able to do.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No, I did not take the complaint to anyone other than the minister because of the confidentiality that I promised that complainant.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I presume, then, that you didn't talk to anyone else about the allegations. Is that fair?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's fair.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you. Your time is up, Mr. Baker.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, the floor is yours.
2:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much for joining us today, Mr. Walbourne.
Is there a procedure to be followed when one is in the situation that you found yourself in, when you learned of the complainant's allegations?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I didn't get the first part of your question. I'm sorry. As for—
2:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Is there a procedure to be followed when one is in the situation that you found yourself in?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes, and that depends on the type of complaint you get.
You may get a formal complaint—someone will come to you with an allegation of something and they will present their evidence. That would cause an investigation process to commence. Then again, people may come to you with an informal complaint. That is something completely different. That is something we try—as I tried to do with this particular complaint—to go to the minister to seek further advice on.
The key here is to protect the complainant—to protect the victim, in this circumstance. That was the goal. But, yes, if a formal allegation has been lodged, there is a formal process to be followed.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
So you went to see the Minister, basically for advice. As I understand it, he gave you none. He did not even want to see the evidence. Is that correct?
3 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's correct.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
You say that, thereafter, your life in the ombudsman's office was much more difficult. Is that also correct?
3 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's correct.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I am going to ask a question that you may not want to answer.
Do you believe that the Minister or the Privy Council Office tried to prevent you from investigating, or tried to make it impossible for you to investigate, in the event that the complainant had been ready to call for an investigation?
3 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That would be a lot of supposition on my part. If the complainant had come to me with a formal allegation and was willing to give me the authority to investigate, it wouldn't have been the minister or PCO who stopped me. I have been known to take these investigations through to their completion. That's my raison d’être. It's what I have done. Unfortunately, this was an informal complaint, and my hands were kind of tied.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
You mentioned earlier that you were expecting the Minister to do his job.
What should he have done, in your opinion?