Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
They would have gotten no evidence from me, because, again, I did not have the complainant's authorization to share that evidence.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
She also told this committee that there were no conversations between PCO and any member of the cabinet on this topic. Given that you said only you, the alleger and the minister knew, can this be accurate?
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I can't respond to that. I have no idea.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Did Minister Sajjan ever characterize his relationship with General Vance to you before he became minister or during his tenure?
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I think in a brief conversation when I first met him, he talked about how he knew General Vance. They had been in Afghanistan together, battle buddies. It was the very first time I met him. We were introducing ourselves. I told him a little bit about my background. He told me a little bit about his. That would be the only mention I can think of.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
In your March 1 meeting with the minister, did he in any way ask or suggest that you resign?
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No, he did not.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You refused our first invitation on the advice of your lawyer. Can you tell us why you felt you needed a lawyer present in the first place?
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
One moment, please.
Given what's happening, the state of affairs we find ourselves in.... I've gone through the wringer once with this department, let me tell you. There's a whole other committee meeting we could have. I thought it best to have some protection.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
With respect to going through the wringer, would you say that this, in general, characterizes the experience of people who do lodge complaints against the military through the chain of command?
3:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I would in no way compare myself with victims who come forward with these types of allegations. Mine was an administrative nightmare. It was absolutely an impossible situation to work in, but I wouldn't put myself in any category close to that of these victims who come forward.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
With the victims that you've dealt with, had any of the types of administrative restrictions and postings, anything related to their being unable to perform the normal duties of their job, been done to them?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I'm not sure I got the question.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
For the outgoing and incoming CDS who have stepped aside, the cases are, for obvious reasons, being investigated independent of the chain of command. Enlisted women have complained that their reports of sexual assault were buried by the chain of command. Are there separate systems in place for investigating complaints based on rank?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
There are none that I'm aware of.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You've written a couple of opinion pieces and statements on your website that would lead us to believe that you could go no further as ombudsman, that you had pushed as hard as you could. Could you elaborate on that for us, please?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Well, this goes back to transitioning members. I was the deputy ombudsman at Veterans Affairs before I came over to the Canadian Armed Forces, and I've seen the tail end of what transition looks like. When I came into the position of the Canadian Armed Forces ombudsman, I took that on with the idea that if we could fix the front end, maybe we could have a better result at the back end.
I went out publicly and spoke in and around the Desmond inquiry at the time. That caused me grief. The governance report, when it was released, caused me grief. When I spoke to the media, things would change. Each time before I went before committee, there would be some nuance of change somewhere coming down the pipe.
Look, it was a full-court press, start to finish. When I first came into this, I sat in front of committee and they asked me, “Gary, do you have the tools you need to do the job?” Being the naive new guy on the street, I said, “Yes, I think with the right people, the right mindset and working collaboratively, we can accomplish much.” That was my first—
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Thank you very much. The time is up.
Right now we will go to Mr. Robillard.
Go ahead, please.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Walbourne, after that meeting, did you conduct an official investigation, as prescribed in the Defence Administrative Orders and Directives, the DAOD, given that you clearly considered the matter to be serious.
Section 4(b) stipulates that, subject to these directives:
4(b) [The ombudsman] may, on the ombudsman's own motion after advising the Minister, investigate any matter concerning the DND or CF.
If that is the case, what happened to the report of that investigation?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That which you're reading, sir, has to do with systemic reviews, when you look at policy, procedure or a clump or group of complaints coming out of a similar area. I can, on my own motion, investigate any policy or procedure.
When I have individual victims approach me, the rules are different. I've said it a few times in front of committee, but let me say it one more time. When the victim comes to me, I ask whether they want this held in confidence or whether they want it investigated. This particular victim said they wanted it held in confidence, so I had no powers, rights or motions that I could bring to bear to start an investigation.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
The DAOD Respecting the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence stipulates that the office of the ombudsman shall be operated in a confidential and secure manner so as to protect the information received by the office in the course of its operations.
Why did you speak to the Minister about your cases?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
As a special adviser to the minister, I thought it prudent on my behalf to let him know that this allegation was there and it was substantiated. I thought it was the right thing to do. He is the person who oversees the chief of the defence staff and has direct control over the position. I don't know if there's someone else in government I should have gone to, but I thought that was the right point of contact.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Why did you go to the Minister and try to tell him something, when the ombudsman is clearly expected to keep information on cases confidential?
3:35 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
What is assured in confidentiality is the protection of the victim's identity. I did not give the minister the details of the allegation. I tried to show him some evidence. He refused to look at it.