National Defence Committee on March 8th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We'll move to Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

I appreciate the motion. I, too, did not get it ahead of time. It is complicated and probably requires some thought. However, I want to raise a couple of general issues that I think have been echoed by colleagues across all sides of the aisle. Mr. Bezan himself said that it's International Women's Day. I think Mr. Garrison referred to the fact that it's important to put the rights and wishes of victims and serving members and their families front and centre in our consideration.

This is really an inquiry that goes, yes, to two particular incidents with respect to former chiefs of the defence staff. Most importantly, it goes to a challenge of system change that's required. This is not just an issue that involves a couple of bad incidents; it's an issue that involves a system that is defective. The minister was quite clear. The minister called for a complete and total culture change. He put the notion of trust front and centre in our considerations. I just want to echo that and to encourage all members of the committee to keep that in the forefront of their minds as we go forward.

How do we protect the wishes of the victims if we now go into an inquiry that goes into emails, texts and very particular correspondence, some of which at least may well be subject to an ongoing investigation? I appreciate Mr. Bezan's comment that these can be edited out or redacted or withheld, but what does it do with respect to the idea of trust in the system if, from the political track, we get an inquiry that really puts out everything that forms part of these discussions?

There is another thing to consider. We just passed a motion by Mr. Bezan, as amended by colleagues, that introduced additional witnesses, many of whom will be able to comment on the basis of documentary evidence or emails or texts that they've sent. A lot of the information that will be required will come forward that way. I'm questioning the usefulness of going to that level of detail when there is a risk of eroding further trust in the process, particularly as it relates to the rights and wishes of the victims and the question of system change.

Yes, we need to inquire about these two incidents, but we also need to turn our minds to what we need to do to transform the system as a whole across individual incidents to make sure they don't happen again. We need to ask how past, present and future personnel of the armed forces, women and men, are going to regain trust in this institution as an inclusive, diverse workplace that is based upon respect, tolerance and recognition of the service and contributions of all members, no matter their gender, no matter their background.

Once again, my call is for the committee to really put the system challenge front and centre, to put the rights of victims front and centre, and to look forward to a way to actually change the system and make it what it should be: an inclusive workplace that all Canadians can aspire to and want to aspire to.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a couple of concerns with this motion. We've heard from witnesses who have appeared before this committee on this topic in the last several meetings, including Mr. Walbourne, that people are reluctant to come forward for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is the perception that their name might be disclosed and there might be retribution in some form.

On all sides, all members of this committee have commented on the importance of protecting those who wish to come forward. I'm very concerned about this. I know there's language in the motion suggesting that the law clerk remove anything that could help identify a person, but to be frank.... I don't know what would be within these documents. I can only imagine I would find it incredibly.... I'm having trouble understanding what information from these documents that would be useful to this committee the law clerk could leave in without risking a breach of the confidentiality we've talked about preserving for those who are coming forward.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if that's practical. It's not just about names of people, it's about dates, locations and whatever is being discussed. All those things have the potential to allow someone to be identified so that they face exactly what they don't want to face and exactly what we've all talked about, which is protecting their anonymity, if they wish it, and protecting them from any kind of potential retribution.

I'm very concerned, very practically, because this information would come through a number of people's hands. As I said, it's impractical for someone to completely eliminate any information that could possibly be used to identify the people concerned. That's my first concern.

The second concern I have is along the lines of what Mr. Spengemann spoke to, irrespective of what I just said, although the two issues are linked. The signal we are sending here is that if someone comes forward with an allegation, now or in the future, there's a risk that a parliamentary committee could request documents that may lead to [Technical difficulty—Editor] public or known to people and therefore being made public after the fact. I would think that would have a very chilling effect on those who want to come forward.

From my vantage point, I really want to make sure we come out of this process focused on solving the problem. This motion would not help to solve that. It would contribute to part of the problem that we've heard about from Mr. Walbourne and others, which is the importance of protecting the people who have come forward or who want to come forward in the future.

Those are my two concerns, and I would urge us not to go down this path for those reasons. I think that if we're serious about protecting the people who are coming forward, we should start by hearing from the witnesses we've all agreed should be invited to the committee. Let's hear from them. I think this would be incredibly risky and do potential harm to serving people who want to come forward in the future.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Okay.

Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to start by suggesting that it's problematic to frame this question as protecting women. I don't believe that's intentional on the part of members of the committee. What we're talking about here.... If we talk about protection, we're talking about trying to design protections against something that is inevitable. I think we have to frame this question around the right of women to serve equally in the Canadian Forces. What the committee needs to be investigating is how that went wrong at the highest levels.

For six years now, we've had a minister and a government telling us they have zero tolerance for sexual misconduct. As I've always said, zero tolerance is an aspiration, not a policy. The documents we're asking for here are not looking at individual cases or the truth or falsity of those accusations. Rather, they look at how those serving at the highest levels of the Canadian Forces and how the minister, frankly, dealt with allegations. Were they dealt with in a way that was effective and resulted in effective investigations and action? Clearly the most recent incidents indicate they were not.

I believe these documents may be helpful—and probably will be helpful—in allowing us to see why that happened. For that reason, I am supporting this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

My comments are somewhat along the same lines as Mr. Garrison’s. We’re talking about trust here. In fact, it’s been talked about since the beginning of this study: we’re talking about trust or lack of trust. At this point, it is clear that there is none.

For my part, I think these documents will help us shed light on several things. What we want to know is how this was handled at the top, and these documents are going to help us determine that. It says in the motion that it would be impossible to identify the individuals involved. I think the wording of the motion expresses that well.

So I will support the motion. The more evidence we have, the easier our job will be. That is indeed the purpose of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan is next, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the interventions from my colleagues.

If we want to inspire confidence in women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces, we need to make sure we fix this process. When we have a failure at the highest levels of government in ensuring that their concerns and allegations are dealt with in a timely manner, we need to get down to the bottom of what happened here.

Again, the committee has the power to demand the production of papers. We're asking the law clerk to redact anything in there that would hurt those investigations or the names and incidents as they have come about. We also know that most of this has already been reported in the media, so there aren't a whole lot of secrets. What is a secret is how this was handled within the minister's office, within the PCO and within the PMO, so that's why we need these documents to get down to the bottom of it.

I can see why Liberal members are scared to have that coming forward, because they've been participating in a bit of a cover-up of their own to protect the minister, but we need to find out what was actually said, what was written, what was done and what wasn't done when we're trying to deal with these very serious allegations of misconduct, by General Vance in particular. We're now also going to want to look at everything on the McDonald file as well, but this is specific to General Vance and what we have seen already released publicly. We as committee members should be able to get more information than the media.

Again, I encourage my colleagues that we have an opportunity here to do some very serious work and have a great outcome that will improve the processes, as well as inspiring women to sign up for the Canadian Armed Forces with a lot more confidence that they will be in a safe and healthy work environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Robillard, you have the floor.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Madam Chair, I think we should refocus the debate a bit. Right now, it’s the victims first and foremost that we need to be thinking about.

How can we ensure that their wishes are respected? How can we better support them? How can we make sure they are at the heart of the process? How can we change the system so that they, the victims, are truly at the centre of the process?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much, Mr. Robillard.

Mr. Baker is next, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is the second time at this committee meeting today that one of the Conservative members has alleged that one or more of the Liberal members are engaged in a cover-up. I resent that allegation.

I don't know, Madam Chair, if there's an opportunity or a mechanism to ask a member to withdraw, but I would like the record to show that I resent that allegation. There is no evidence to support any kind of cover-up going on. To allege that other members of this committee are participating in a cover-up, I think, is reprehensible.

On the issue at hand, in terms of the motion, we're aligned in our desire to ensure the military is a safe place for people of all backgrounds, men and women alike. We want to eliminate sexual harassment and other inappropriate behaviour. We're all aligned on that. I don't, however, think that requesting documents that pose a risk of someone being identified helps to achieve that goal.

I'm concerned about the signal we're sending. I'm concerned about the practical elements of this. I'm concerned that someone could be identified through this process. I'm also concerned that it's sending a signal to men and women who may want to come forward—who have come forward—that their information could potentially be shared in a much broader setting by the defence committee.

What we've heard from witness after witness who has come to this committee, including Mr. Walbourne, is the importance—in instances like this, when allegations are brought forward—that there be an independent investigation outside of the chain of command.

Any information that's relevant to these investigations should be handled by independent professionals, and not by us at this committee. That this information could be presented to a committee in a public forum, to me, is not the way in which we make this a safe place for people to come forward. I'm concerned that if we pass such a motion, we're not doing right by those folks about whom the other members have said they want to ensure they feel safe in the military. I'm concerned about that.

Information like this belongs with an investigative body only, and if we risk or even create a perception that there's a risk that confidential, sensitive information could be shared—information that's been shared with an ombudsman or shared in a setting that is designed to be safe—that's a very dangerous thing. It sets a dangerous precedent, and it sends a signal to people who want to come forward that their information could be shared.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I have Mr. Spengemann, followed by Mr. Bagnell.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

I wanted to revert to my earlier comments, but before I do that, I want to echo the concern that was raised by my colleague Mr. Baker. This is the second time at this committee session that there's been a reference from a Conservative member to a “cover-up”, most recently by Mr. Bezan. It was a general reference. There was a much more specific reference earlier in the meeting against a colleague of ours at the table, that she was engaged in a cover-up. It was put in the form of a question, so it wasn't a direct allegation, but the member who raised this tried to do indirectly what she knows she can't do directly.

That puts a different lens on the way I'm thinking about the Conservative position on this. This is not necessarily now, in my mind, an exercise to actually get to the facts. This is an exercise to prove that there's a cover-up. It has a political lens, a political taint, and I don't think a victim of sexual misconduct, or worse, in the Canadian Forces should become an instrument for these kinds of tactics. We have a victim in this particular case who we know expressed a very clear preference not to go forward.

Now I'll speak to the motion more generally. As the very next thing, without even having read an email, and under the lens of proving a cover-up, the motion is to go forward and ask for every bit of correspondence that potentially could prove that, carefully extracting her name, perhaps, from every single email, report, document or text. In aggregate, however, it could still pose, as Mr. Baker suggested, a very high risk that the identity of this particular complainant is exposed in the course of these proceedings.

We agreed previously today, Madam Chair, to a motion to bring additional witnesses, including asking the minister to return. This information can come out through conversation with these officials. If there are reports that are referenced in conversation, the committee has the discretion to request an undertaking for that report to be brought to the committee, subject to confidentiality redactions. However, to now ask for absolutely every email, text and report in the context of, essentially, a fishing expedition to prove a cover-up, I don't think does justice for this victim.

Much more profoundly, it doesn't do an inch of good to advance the real issue, which is the systemic culture change that's required in the Canadian Forces. I have yet to hear a constructive thought from my Conservative colleagues on how to achieve that. I'm very open to hearing them. I'm hoping that in the context of our work, going forward, that will be the focus of our discussion.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Mr. Bagnell is next, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Of course, I agree with what Mr. Spengemann just said. That's the point I've been making, that this should be the focus of our committee.

When I put my hand up, it was to make the point that Mr. Baker has now made very well. That is, there are two problems. One is the culture. We should be trying to come up with solutions to that. We haven't gotten very far on that, and that's what the experts say is the problem. The second issue is that people are afraid to come forward. They don't want it to be public, etc. A lot of protections have been put into the system now to protect anonymity, to allow people to feel comfortable to come forward, to not go into a formal investigation but to come forward and air their concerns or have consultations or have counselling. They should have the choice to be anonymous as long as it fits natural justice.

Then, all of a sudden, we have a defence committee that will override their ability to remain anonymous. As Mr. Bezan said, a lot of this is in the media. That would make it much easier to identify a person to whom a document refers in some of the ones that were being brought forward under this broad umbrella of documents. Because of what's in the media already, where the documents came from could be easily perused, even though their name is not in it.

All committee members should think about that. Are we overriding the protection that we're trying to give individuals to come forward confidentially and air their concerns?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Baker is next, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We should consider something Mr. Spengemann mentioned earlier, which is that we have access to witnesses that we've passed motions to invite to this committee. They are largely the ones who are mentioned in the motion we're debating right now. We could certainly learn a lot from them, I suspect. Why not do that rather than taking the risk of exposing someone who has come forward? To me, that would be the rationale for not passing this motion. I think we'd be taking a great risk.

We have investigative bodies whose role is to look into these cases of allegations of sexual harassment and assault. I think we should be focusing on how we make the system better for victims. We've heard from witnesses who have come forward about a range of things that can be done. I think those are the things this committee should be tasked with. That's our mandate.

I also agree with something Mr. Spengemann mentioned earlier, which is that now that a couple of Conservative committee members have alleged that there is a cover-up without evidence to support that, it clearly shows that this is about politics. I struggle with the signal it sends to people who want to come forward, which is that politics will potentially trump their safety, their security and the protection we should be helping to afford and provide to them.

I wanted to add those points, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Robillard, you are next, please.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Madam Chair, since the beginning of this case, media reports have revealed that the meeting between the minister and the ombudsman was about an inappropriate email from 2012. So it had no bearing on Maj. Brennan’s recent statements. Therefore, I would like to know the status of the investigation regarding Maj. Brennan’s statements.

Can we obtain any information regarding this investigation? What was the process followed in conducting it? What led to its initiation and who is overseeing it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

That's a good question.

We have to be very careful. We don't want to prejudice an ongoing investigation, but there may be a witness we could find who could speak to that in general terms, rather than specifics.

We'll take that under advisement and see if we can find an answer to your question.

We'll go to Mr. Bagnell, then Mr. Spengemann and then Mr. Baker.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Following up on my previous comment, I'd like to hear from those who are in favour of the motion on whether they're convinced that all these documents would really protect the anonymity of those who want to be anonymous. Some of them would be fine, but considering the information that's out there now, it might be pretty obvious as to what document refers to what person.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We will move on to Mr. Spengemann, please.