National Defence Committee on March 8th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25. Committee members will therefore participate in person or through the Zoom application. The proceedings will be posted on the House of Commons website. For your information, the webcast will always show the individual speaking rather than the entire committee.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available, but please let me know if we have any challenges with interpretation or technology. Please bring that to my attention.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. When speaking, I'll try to follow my own advice to speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, please put your mike on mute.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they're participating virtually or in person. Please use the “raise hand” function. That's what the clerks will be using to keep track of whose turn it is to talk next.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4) the committee is meeting today to consider a request received by the clerk and submitted by four members of the committee to discuss their request for additional witnesses for the study on addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the allegations against the former chief of the defence staff, Jonathan Vance.

We also have a motion from Mr. Garrison, which has been forwarded to all committee members, for consideration.

I will now open the floor to debate.

Mr. Garrison, you can proceed with your motion.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. Since this was a special meeting called by Conservative members, I believe we should get the floor first to explain why we want to have this special meeting under Standing Order 106(4), and then we can proceed to moving motions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I received advice from the clerk, who said it didn't matter one way or the other.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I believe I suggested earlier, about half an hour ago, that I'd like to have the floor first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I accepted your request, but Mr. Garrison brought his motion, and that motion—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Our motion has been circulated as well, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

—was forwarded to the committee. We need to get it on the floor, and then I'll hand it over to you. I don't think this is going to take very long.

Go ahead, Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm at a bit of a loss, Madam Chair. I thought we were going to have a report from the steering committee to the full committee at the beginning of this meeting.

I'm happy to place my motion on the record at this point, and yield the floor to Mr. Bezan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Could you read your motion, Mr. Garrison, please?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I move:

That the Standing Committee on National Defence invite the Minister of National Defence to return to the committee and clarify his previous testimony given during his first appearance as part of the study on the allegations of sexual misconduct against the former Chief of the Defence Staff now that the Committee has heard testimony from former National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman, Mr. Gary Walbourne. As the former Ombudsman’s testimony conflicts with what the Minister disclosed about his meeting of March 1, 2018 with Mr. Walbourne, the committee requires clarification from the Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

The motion is now on the floor.

Mr. Bezan, you can now bring your motion to the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Wait, please. Do we need to debate this motion?

This motion is open for debate.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Just for clarification, did he table it or did he actually move the motion? I'm pretty sure he just gave a notice of motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Garrison, are you bringing it forward for debate, or did you just want to read it into the record?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Madam Chair, again, without a report out of the steering committee, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed. I believe we have general agreement that the minister should appear and that the minister is willing to appear.

I will move the motion. I don't think it requires a lot of debate at this point. We can deal with it expeditiously and move on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Does anybody else want to...?

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I found it a little suspect how the meeting opened and the way our last meeting closed. You adjourned the meeting without actually having consensus from the committee to adjourn, and Mr. Garrison was trying to raise a point of order.

I will just say this, Madam Chair. I support having the minister come back to committee. I support having him correct his previous testimony, now that we've heard from Mr. Walbourne.

I say to all committee members, though, that I think it would be more beneficial if the minister waited until we got through some more witnesses that we want to call, especially as we hope to expand the scope of the study to include the allegations of sexual misconduct against Admiral McDonald.

If we could have him appear after a few other witnesses have come forward, and we hear that testimony then, Madam Chair, I think we'd be very welcoming of having the minister return.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Madam Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

This minister has shown throughout the period he's been minister that when he's been asked to come to this committee, he has always been very happy and willing to come and testify and to answer questions. That's something the minister has always done. I have full confidence that he will do that again. There are a number of things I believe the minister would like to get on the record. This is something I would imagine we would want to do as soon as possible.

I also caution, though, that we have ongoing investigations. As the committee has stated, and I know the opposition members agree, we have to be very careful when we're looking at ongoing investigations. We have to make sure we don't do anything that could impact a just and fair outcome for any complainants who are coming forward. The more we're going back and forth and debating about political witnesses, and the more this is politicized, the less likely it becomes that the women we want to come forward will do so, and we want women to come forward—women and men.

I think the minister is very happy to come back. I know he will make himself available whenever this committee would like him to come. I would imagine that sooner rather than later would be appropriate.

Please, everybody, let's just remember that we don't want to jeopardize any ongoing investigations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Baker, go ahead.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

I want to echo what Ms. Vandenbeld said in terms of the minister's willingness to come. I believe he's very willing to come. He's come before, and I think that's important.

I'm not sure if I understood Mr. Bezan's request that we delay the minister from coming. Maybe there's a rationale that Mr. Bezan could share. It sounds as though Mr. Bezan doesn't want him to come right way. Maybe I misunderstood that. I'm not trying to put words in his mouth. I'm just trying to understand what the rationale is there.

I know that after we heard from Mr. Walbourne at our last meeting, there was some interest from members, including the opposition, in hearing from the minister. I'm just wondering if there's a change there and what Mr. Bezan's intention was when he suggested that we delay the minister coming.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Can I just interrupt here?

Does anyone have an objection to Mr. Garrison's motion? I don't think anybody's objecting. Is that correct?

(Motion agreed to)

Good.

We'll go over to you, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Conservative members requested this meeting to ensure that we spent some time talking about the testimony that was given by Gary Walbourne and the developments that have occurred in the past few days in the media—some more details of complaint.

I agree with Mrs. Vandenbeld that we don't want to politically interfere in the investigations. We don't want to taint them, and we want there to be a fair process for all the parties concerned.

However, there are the new allegations that came forward against Admiral McDonald that also need to be looked at, and we need to get down to what processes are in place, what didn't happen and why the minister didn't act back in 2018.

I'm going to move the following motion at committee here, especially as we celebrate International Women's Day. We have a lot of women in the Canadian Armed Forces who have sworn an oath to protect each and every one of us, and it is our duty as this committee to protect them from sexual harassment in the Canadian Armed Forces.

This motion has been circulated to committee, so everybody has it in front of them. I move:

That, the Standing Committee on National Defence, concerning its study on Addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the allegations against former Chief of Defence Staff Jonathan Vance, expand the scope of the study to include the allegations against Admiral Art McDonald, and that the committee invite the Minister of National Defence, alongside the Deputy Minister of National Defence, to testify at his earliest opportunity, for no less than two hours, and that this meeting be held in public and televised, and that should the Minister not agree to appear within fourteen days of the passage of this motion, that the chair be instructed to report to the House requesting that the Committee be empowered to compel the Minister's appearance from time to time; that the Committee summon Lieutenant Commander Raymond Trotter to testify within five days of the passage of this motion, that the meeting take place in public and be televised, that the witness appear for no less than two hours, that the witness appear alone, and that the witness be permitted to appear with counsel; and, the committee issue a summons to the following witnesses to testify: a) Zita Astravas, b) Michael Wernick, that the witnesses appear no less than two hours, that no more than two witnesses be scheduled for each meeting, that these meetings be held in public and be televised; and, that the witnesses be called to testify within fourteen days of this motion passing; and, that the committee invite the following witnesses to testify: c) Elder Marques, d) Janine Sherman, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office, and e) Lieutenant Colonel (retired) Bernard Boland. That the witnesses appear no less than two hours, that no more than two witnesses be scheduled for each meeting, that these meetings be held in public and be televised; and, that the witnesses be called to testify within fourteen days of this motion passing.

Madam Chair, I would speak to the motion.

I realize this motion was tabled before we passed Mr. Garrison's motion, but we do need to hear from Deputy Minister Jody Thomas. The minister and the deputy minister need to appear for a full two hours so that we can have a thorough discussion.

On the summons of Lieutenant-Commander Raymond Trotter, the reason it needs to be a summons is he's still in the chain of command. According to reports and news last night on Global, he's already faced intimidation and threats that his career is over. We want to make sure he feels free to appear without fear of reprimand, and the only way we can ensure that he can appear is to summon him through a subpoena.

We have extended invitations—that is my understanding, Madam Chair—to both Zita Astravas and Michael Wernick, and they have declined those invitations. Since we have invited them in the past, then we should summon them this time, so that we can find out what took place in 2018, from the Privy Council Office down to the minister's office, when Ms. Astravas was the chief of staff to Minister Sajjan.

Then, it has been brought to light in news media this past week that Elder Marques, who was a senior policy person in the Prime Minister's Office, was also involved in communications back and forth with the Privy Council Office and the minister's office.

We have had Janine Sherman at committee in this study previously. We need to call her back, especially now that there are actually memos going back and forth from her to an unknown person—I'm assuming in the minister's office—as well as a briefing note that was prepared via the Privy Council Office, because they needed to get things in writing. That actually supports the position that former ombudsman Gary Walbourne was not in a position or able to investigate the allegation without the approval of the victim, who wanted it to remain confidential, and without direction from the Minister of National Defence, to whom he reported.

We also want to include retired Lieutenant-Colonel Boland, who also has experienced situations where the chain of command has obstructed the reporting of sexual and other misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces.

It's important for us to look at the process. We have to look at the cover-up by Minister Sajjan and the PCO when the allegations were brought forward in 2018. We need to look at the timeline from when Commander Trotter first reported on February 3 that there were allegations of sexual misconduct against Admiral McDonald, and at the fact that it then took another three weeks before Admiral McDonald stepped aside. We know calls were made right to the minister's office and to the deputy minister's office, and still it took another three weeks before Admiral McDonald had to step aside so there could be an unobstructed investigation, free of chain-of-command interference.

I'm putting that on the floor. I hope everyone here can support it, so that we can stand up for the brave women who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces and ensure that they have an independent and safe process through which to come forward with complaints of sexual misconduct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Madam Gallant, you're next.