National Defence Committee on March 8th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bagnell, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

To be consistent, as I've said from the beginning, I think the most important thing is to look at ways to improve the culture so that this doesn't happen again. It's a long effort that will need a number of provisions, and we haven't done that.

The second thing that I said we need to look at is the procedures when a complaint comes into the department. Does it go to the right investigative bodies and everything? We need to make sure that is clear.

However, now it seems—related to this motion—that we also need to look at the methods of protecting the anonymity of people coming forth. It can't just be overridden and their information made public. Obviously, as Mr. Bezan said, a number of these items are already public, so it might be easy to identify which person is being referred to.

I still want an answer to my question about redaction and whether a government is allowed to redact something that's been provided to it in confidence. It's pretty hard to be comfortable without an answer to that question. I'm not sure which technical expert can provide that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you once again.

Just sitting back and reflecting on comments over the course of the last hour, my question at this point is this: What would Canadians want us to do, and what does this problem mean to them? Yes, they are concerned. They're concerned because there are misconduct allegations against two former chiefs of the defence staff. Yes, they're concerned, because they realize there's a systemic issue with respect to gender equality, sexual harassment, potentially sexual assault and also diversity and inclusion more broadly within the Canadian Forces. They also have respect for the Canadian Forces—their deployments overseas, their service at home and their service during the pandemic. They believe in the Canadian Forces as something that's quintessentially Canadian, but where systemic and serious problems persist.

Over the course of the last hour, we've basically been told in no uncertain terms by two members of the Conservative Party that they believe there's a cover-up, without having introduced any evidence to that effect. The only way to read this motion now is as a dragnet or a fishing expedition that is to consolidate the conclusion of a cover-up. This is after we had just agreed to have a number of witnesses appear or reappear who have the information—in the follow-up to the session we had with the former ombudsperson—to give additional testimony and to give their version of the story. Hopefully they would also give their views of how the Canadian Forces can and should be changed to eliminate this culture of systemic sexual harassment and, more disturbingly, data that supports the prevalence of sexual assault in large percentages within the Canadian Forces.

There's serious work to be done. There's work to be done that, yes, needs to focus on the investigation of these two cases. That work needs to protect the victim and the complainants in this case, but also to be forward looking and ask, especially now that it's happened for the second time, how we can make sure we can change the system to preserve this extremely valuable institution called the Canadian Forces. They have done tremendous historical service and tremendous current service at home and abroad, as I've said. They also represent a very distinct and by many accounts valuable and necessary employment opportunity for Canadians. Canadians should be able to aspire to a role in the Canadian Forces without any trepidation or fear of being harassed or otherwise mistreated.

That's really where the committee should direct its attention. For the last hour, we've debated something that is much more political in nature than what we should be looking at as a committee, I think, across party lines. We should try to move forward and develop solutions.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Mr. Robillard, you have the floor.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My comments will be along the same lines as Mr. Baker's.

Prime Minister Harper appointed General Vance in the summer of 2015. I can't help but imagine what our colleagues would have said if a Liberal defence minister had sanctioned or investigated a Conservative appointment; it would have been totally legitimate to believe a baseless political attack.

It is, of course, logical that before making a decision that could lead to an investigation, the facts must be verified. Indeed, the Privy Council attempted to obtain information regarding this complaint from the ombudsman, who declined to provide any information.

I think we need to change the system so that victims can testify without fear of reprisal. Can we work towards that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Robillard.

Mr. Paul-Hus, the floor is yours.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I hear it said that we are playing politics. Yet the reason we are here is because a political operation has been set up and we have a problem.

It reminds me eerily of the SNC-Lavalin scandal three years ago. It was the same kind of operation, coordinated to cover up and prevent the information from becoming public knowledge. Say what you will, that is exactly what is happening now. It should also be noted that some of the actors involved in the situation that concerns us today were also involved in the SNC-Lavalin affair. It's a funny coincidence, in my opinion.

What is important right now is that one of our institutions, the Canadian Armed Forces, is being shaken. Canadian Armed Forces personnel are doing what they can to uphold the military code and Operation Honour. Personnel receive training on a regular basis. My son has been a member of the Canadian Armed Forces for a few months, and the first courses he received were on Operation Honour. People at all levels are doing what they can.

In this case, the chiefs of staff and the Minister of Defence are involved. For his part, the ombudsman serves as an advisor and intermediary since military members do not always have access to their superiors. That's the role the ombudsman played in 2018. The problem was that the minister refused to hear what the ombudsman reported to him. Subsequently—and this is where the political operation started—the Privy Council arranged for the information not to fall into the public domain and for no investigation to be launched. This is very serious.

We are not playing politics. We are here to advocate for citizens and for the Canadian Armed Forces. This is a very large institution, in which I served for 22 years. I know what it's like because I've experienced it first hand. I also know that attitudes have changed over time. I joined the Canadian Forces in 1987, over 30 years ago. I know that the institution has evolved tremendously since that time.

Members of the Canadian Armed Forces want things to work well. However, if we learn that the Minister of Defence does not want to be informed of a serious situation, that is a concern. If a member of the Canadian Armed Forces reports a superior because he or she thinks something doesn't make sense, but receives threats, that's serious.

We can't ignore this and not make it a political issue. Everything is political, the appointments of the joint chiefs of staff are political, they are government decisions. Mr. Robillard is trying to blame the Conservatives by saying that the appointment took place in 2015. We know that very well and the public knows that an investigation was done at the time and no information was deemed sufficient to reject General Vance's appointment.

Three years later, the chief of staff was in office. In 2018, the ombudsman approached the minister on behalf of the military, but the minister would not listen. In my opinion, this is unacceptable and very serious. It is the duty of the Minister of Defence to protect his army. When someone is the Minister of Defence, his responsibilities are very different from those of other ministries, because 60,000 people look up to him. The military follows the minister, that is, the chief of staff and all the people in the chain of command. That's how it works.

We are asking to get this basic information in order to do our job. I think Canadians are asking for the same thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Baker, you have the floor.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to follow up on a few comments made by my colleagues.

Mr. Paul-Hus was talking about members of the Canadian Armed Forces following their leader or the minister.

I agree. In my view, members of the Canadian Armed Forces understand that the minister respects the institutions and procedures, which are there to protect them. The minister can launch an investigation, which will be conducted in a professional manner with the goal of protecting the victims. I think we all agree that this is incredibly important. Also, it is the Privy Council Office employees who take on this task, and they have the tools to do it, if necessary.

If a politician or any individual outside of this independent process were to conduct investigations, it could pose a great risk to confidentiality. We've talked about this a lot today and in other meetings. It could lead members of the Canadian Forces to believe that the process is not independent. That is my concern.

I want to come back to something Mrs. Gallant was talking about, which is the testimony of Mr. Walbourne. Mr. Walbourne indicated that he didn't have the permission of the person bringing forward the allegations to share his or her identity with the minister when he indicated that he met with the minister.

In that particular case, we all agree that we need to respect people who are coming forward with allegations. We all believe that. We have heard that from witnesses who have come forward and who are experts in this area. Mr. Walbourne, as Mrs. Gallant said, indicated that he didn't have the permission of the person coming forward to reveal his or her identity, even to the minister. On that basis, when the minister immediately went to the Privy Council Office and asked it to look into the matter in an arm's-length way, the ombudsman indicated, when contacted by the Privy Council Office, that he couldn't share the evidence needed to initiate an investigation.

If we believe the wishes of the person coming forward need to be respected, and we cite Mr. Walbourne as an example of respecting the wishes of someone coming forward, we also need to do that. My concern is that this is part of the problem with this motion. We haven't made sure we have the permission of the people who have made allegations. They have not given us their consent.

If we're on the one hand going to say that if Mr. Walbourne wasn't given consent by the person bringing allegations, he should not share the identity of that individual, then I think we have to live by that same principle. We don't know what's in this mass of documents that would be pulled together through this motion. Ms. Gallant indicated that the Liberals on this committee believe, based on our arguments, that the names of people who come forward are being shared in these communications. I have no idea what's in those communications, but we do know that the identity of a person can be ascertained many different ways. It doesn't require that their name be written as first name and last name on a piece of paper. It could be done through a whole range of information put together. We have to be very sensitive to that.

Any communication that involves any information about these cases—specific allegations especially, and the timing and context and all those sorts of things—puts people who come forward at risk for those reasons. That's why I think this particular motion poses a tremendous amount of risk to the people who brought forward allegations. It's also dangerous for people in the future who may want to bring forward allegations. It signals that their information could be discovered through a process like a motion, if passed, like the one we have before us here today.

I wanted to respond to those points, but I also wanted to make that case. It's exactly because of that respect for the wishes of the person coming forward—as cited by Ms. Gallant, citing Mr. Walbourne—that we should also do the same. Therefore, I think these documents risk exposing those individuals who have bravely come forward. We shouldn't take that risk.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you once again.

I think this bears repeating. A number of my colleagues have made the point, but just to put a sharper point on it, the ombudsperson really made a choice. He made the choice to bring confidential and unactionable information to a political office instead of sending it to the sexual misconduct response centre or the provost marshal. He had the procedures available to him. He chose not to use them and instead brought it to the minister. He himself told us that he was looking for political top cover. Taking it to the minister made it political, and the minister knew that it should not be political and was very clear on that. He also knew that he could not make a decision based on unsubstantiated and non-existent claims.

I've made reference to the minister's position a couple of times in previous interventions. The committee has asked him to come back, and he has agreed to come back. I just want to put before the committee once again the position of openness he took in his remarks before the committee last time, a position with which he comes to us whenever we hear from him next.

The minister said:

I'm deeply troubled that members of the Canadian Armed Forces have felt trust has been broken and that people believe they could not come forward. No matter the rank, no matter the position, sexual misconduct and harassment is not acceptable. We want it reported. We want it investigated. We want to support those impacted.

Eliminating sexual misconduct and creating a safe work environment for everyone on the defence team has been one of my top priorities as the Minister of National Defence. We have more work to do to ensure that any member of the Canadian Armed Forces or civilian in the Department of National Defence feels able to come forward with complaints without fear of any sort of reprisal.

I also want to recognize the women who have come forward with these allegations. We're offering all available resources to them to help support them through this difficult time. Ensuring their well-being must be our focus.

We recognize how difficult it can be to bring forward allegations, and we must do more to eliminate the barriers that prevent people from reporting. I treat all allegations of inappropriate behaviour, harassment or sexual misconduct with the utmost seriousness. I can assure this committee and all Canadians that any allegations that were brought forward were aggressively and very quickly put forward to the proper authorities. All the proper processes were followed.

Along with the defence team, I will continue ensuring the recent allegations are addressed through the proper authorities. We will have a thorough and deep independent investigation separate from the chain of command.

You want answers, Canadians want answers and I want answers, but most importantly those who have stepped forward with allegations deserve answers.

That is the mindset with which the Minister of National Defence spoke to us when he appeared before the committee. That is the mindset with which he will reappear to answer questions—questions that matter to all members of this committee and questions that matter to Canadians.

In my view, that is the right direction forward. It is not to engage in conjecture of a cover-up and in a massive fishing expedition on all kinds of documents, emails, texts and reports, none of which at the moment are grounded in facts. It is not to engage in pure speculation, jeopardizing the risk of this particular complainant's name being disclosed directly or indirectly, when we actually have the minister in front of us, who can give us directions, and when we have officials and witnesses in front of us who can give us direction. That would be the right time to ask specific questions, to ask for documents, if relevant, and to come to conclusions. Hopefully, once again that will take the committee forward in a constructive direction, at the end of which Canadians can regain trust in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We have Mr. Robillard and then Madam Vandenbeld.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If the Privy Council Office reviewed the matter, decided that no further action could be taken due to confidentiality requirements—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Robillard, your microphone doesn't seem to be working well.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'm sorry. Is that better?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I apologize to committee members.

If the Privy Council Office reviewed the matter, decided that no further action could be taken because of confidentiality requirements with respect to the complainant's testimony, then the ombudsman was simply following the recommendations of the Privy Council Office, whose responsibility it is to review these types of matters.

Why would the minister not have complied with this decision?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

I think we're over to Madam Vandenbeld now, and then Mr. Bagnell.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to put an amendment to the motion that we are debating right now. There are about four lines in the first sentence, and then, when it says “allegations against General Vance in March 2018 and the period of April 1—May 31 2019 inclusive”, I would add the words “and 2015”.

Then you have a) through g). I would add h) Ray Novak and PCO, i) Gerrit Nieuwoudt and PCO, j) Gerrit Nieuwoudt and Ray Novak, and k) former minister of national defence Jason Kenney or his deputy minister and the Privy Council Office. The rest of the motion would remain the same.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] to you, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It was pointed out to me that there was no timeline in terms of months when I said “2015”.

With the committee's permission, I would like to withdraw the motion and resubmit the same motion with “and January to August 2015, inclusive”. Just to be clear, the only change is that instead of saying “in 2015”, which would presumably be the whole year, I am saying “January to August 2015”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

It seems nobody is disagreeing with that.

Thank you very much for the co-operation; we have a finalized amendment now.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

On the amendment, I think it's important for the idea of process and what was used for vetting. I know the Liberals are trying to say this should have been discovered beforehand, but we know these allegations never came to light until 2018. To try to go back to 2015 and look at the vetting process at that point in time over allegations that weren't even known back in 2015, is a wild goose chase. I don't think you're going to find anything there. At the same time, we don't have anything to hide. We're expecting this.

Unlike what we've seen in the filibuster and people concerned about cover-ups and things like that, I would just say that we want to get this motion passed and the papers produced. It's interesting to hear Liberals at committee say we're going to expose the victims here. That is not true at all. Producing these papers and going through the law clerk to preserve the integrity of those investigations and protect those victims is the way we are going to be able to ensure that this is a respectful process and that all of us can have confidence, Madam Chair, that it provides the information we need to make the changes that are required.

It goes to the very top. It goes right to the minister and the minister's office on how these allegations were handled when they were brought before him. We all know that Gary Walbourne, the former ombudsman, had not provided the hard evidence to the minister in a physical or electronic manner. All we're talking about are conversations that happened between officials. Ultimately, at the end of the day, we'll be able to have a better picture of what went wrong.