National Defence Committee on Nov. 20th, 2020

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

On April 24 of this year, the chief of the defence staff noted that the personnel's use of helplines and access to mental health professionals was at an all-time low. I'm wondering if Admiral Patterson can comment on that and include in her comments any differences related to mental health supports requested by women and why it seems that when a lot of people in the world are having increased mental stress, the use of the helpline might be lower.

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

We know that, in line with our civilian counterparts, in the first part of the pandemic, all of us saw a decrease in use of the service. The reasons for that reduction of service are something that we are going to be looking at over the long run. However, what we've tried to express throughout all of our communication with members of the Canadian Armed Forces is that just because they may be working from a different location, that doesn't mean that we're not here to help support them should they have any mental health challenges. We work very hard to make sure that it becomes known that these helplines are available, and that people can still book face-to-face appointments and that they can reach out to the chain of command if they are suffering from any great distress linked to either ongoing health issues or things that arise with the pandemic.

In terms of the impact of COVID on women in general, we know that COVID impacts men and women differently within the Canadian Armed Forces. We, of course, will be doing ongoing studies to have a look at just what that means. However, one thing I will go to is that, with serving men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces, as part of our business resumption plan, we were provided with direction using gender-based analysis, which allowed local-level commanders to take into account those factors that sometimes impact men and women differently, and so commanders could make very precise decisions regarding how to best deploy their people.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

In closing, I'll just say that it's great to have people from different joint task forces here. I hope that in one of these meetings we can have the commander of joint task force north.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, the floor is yours.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. I want to say that we're grateful for the role that they play in the forces.

The pandemic has been challenging for everyone, and they're no exception. I want them to know that I'm asking these questions to gather information on the operations conducted, not to judge the decisions made.

Some of my constituents who work in health care are concerned. Right now, in my region of Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, we have the highest rate of COVID-19 infections. The situation isn't getting better at all. We've already exceeded the number of cases reported in Montreal yesterday. The health care system is struggling. Many people in remote areas are asking questions. They're worried, which is completely normal.

I want to know a bit more about the steps that lead to military involvement in health care. Who makes the request? To whom is the request made? How is the request delivered?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. I'll respond in French.

As noted, the pandemic is, and has been, extremely challenging for everyone across the country.

I'll give you an overview of the process. Both provincial and territorial authorities voice their needs within their own systems. In the provinces, including Quebec, these requests must be made in such a way that they're referred to Public Safety Canada at the federal level.

The requests are discussed at the federal level by Public Safety Canada and National Defence officials. Based on the decision of our minister and, of course, the advice of the chief of the defence staff, who is responsible for providing the best possible advice on the use of military force, the requests will be accepted, if appropriate.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Are there specific criteria, Major-General Fortin? I imagine that an evaluation grid must be filled out.

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Exactly. However, I'd say that the process isn't quite as straightforward as you might think. Each request is different. Some situations are perhaps a little less abstract for most Canadians, such as floods or forest fires. The province's capacity is overwhelmed. We'll determine whether we can seek additional assistance at the federal level, either from the Department of National Defence or from another department.

I'll add that our liaison officers' network always works closely with provincial and territorial authorities. Specifically in Quebec, we maintain close ties with Geneviève Guilbault, the deputy premier of Quebec and public safety minister. In addition, as you've seen during the pandemic, we've developed a relationship with the Quebec department of health and social services, or MSSS.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Major-General Fortin.

We saw the status of the situation. Dr. Tam told us earlier about periods when there could be 20,000 new cases a day. These are obviously frightening predictions.

Have you already prepared action plans for each area of Quebec, in the event of a request? The situation may be consistent with this scenario.

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I want to point out that, based on our experience last spring and summer, we've continued—although in an extremely gradual and cautious manner—the training and force generation activities for our activities or operations abroad. We've maintained our capacity so that we remain prepared to meet the various needs of Canadians.

On that note, elements of the Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF, are called upon to respond to a range of potential activities—and they're ready to respond. While natural events such as fires, forest fires or floods are unlikely to occur in the coming months, this capacity remains in place.

We've also learned several lessons and taken into account our observations over the spring. We've incorporated them into our decision-making and force preparation process.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Major-General Fortin.

If you had to identify one or two key lessons among the most important lessons learned—because Operation Laser is a first for the armed forces—what would they be?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We were able to learn both important and innocuous lessons. For example, we learned how to make sure that we have a good supply of personal protective equipment. We had some inventory, but we acquired more. We continue to do this at the federal level, as do all other entities, including provincial entities. So we have more equipment.

We also developed a training program geared towards providing support in seniors' residences and long-term care facilities, or CHSLDs. If we had to respond to a request for assistance, this program could be implemented throughout the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have a customized program to ensure that the people called upon to help not only have good medical skills, but are also prepared to meet the specific needs associated with geriatric care.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I don't have any time left.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Garrison, we've been having some technical troubles getting you on board here.

Do you want to try to see if we can get your questions in now? We can bump you further down the list....

Oh, look at that. Perfect. Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've found that if I don't move my head and I don't move my hand, this appears to work. Let me try that. I apologize to committee members for any inadvertent replies as we were trying to fix the technical problems.

I also want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I have some questions about the impact of the large percentage of contracted-out services within DND during COVID. I realize it may be difficult for some of our witnesses to answer, but let me set the context here.

Nearly five years ago, I asked about these high levels of contracting out and their impacts on force readiness and the security of facilities and equipment, and in particular the problem of having workers working for private contractors who are in a precarious employment situation and the possible pressures that can be placed on them.

I heard very clearly from the Public Service Alliance of Canada and from others that at the beginning of COVID, when the Canadian Forces put in place very strict standards for safety and protection of personnel, these same standards of protection, and in fact PPE, were not applied by all the private contractors working side by side with both Canadian Armed Forces members and civilian employees of DND.

I wonder whether you can comment on that problem. What measures have been taken to make sure the private contractors achieve the same standards during COVID as the Canadian Armed Forces and DND civilian employees?

[MGen Dany Fortin]

Madam Chair, thank you very much for the question. As you might expect, I will turn it over to Admiral Patterson in a second.

I would say that throughout, as we learned a lot about the COVID pandemic, we adopted force health protection measures. That is also true for our medical professionals, whether they are military or non-military members of the CAF and DND. This also applies to individuals who are contracted. That's not exclusive to medical professionals, but the same would apply across the board.

I'll defer to Admiral Patterson on this particular point with regard to medical....

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think I'll shape this in terms of public health measures.

Public health measures apply to the facilities and the people who work within those facilities. From a health services perspective, we have provided the public health measures advice based on provincial guidance and guidelines, as well as any more restrictive requirements based on the chief of the defence staff and deputy minister's direction. Anybody working within a DND facility is expected to follow those rules.

We also have people who enforce those rules, standing at the doors as people come into the facilities. While I cannot comment on any specific cases, specific types of contractors or locations, there have been, from both the department and from the Canadian Armed Forces' perspective, expectations of maintaining these protective health measures as part of the conditions of entering into any defence establishment.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much for that reply.

I want to continue and ask about cleaning standards. In the past, we know there have been problems of underperformance with cleaning by certain private contractors, in terms of diluting cleaning solutions and taking other cleaning shortcuts.

Obviously during COVID, especially in the military health facilities, maintaining those very high standards of cleaning is extremely important—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

I don't want to upset my colleagues. However, the interpretation isn't as loud as Mr. Garrison's voice. I can't understand what he's saying at all, unfortunately.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michel Marcotte]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, can you click on the French interpretation channel? That may be the issue.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, I chose the French channel.

[The Clerk]

Do you have the floor muted?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There's also no French-to-English interpretation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Sorry?

[The Clerk]

Do you have a button to mute the floor?