National Defence Committee on March 23rd, 2022

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Certainly there is the point you brought forward about needing to identify at intake...so that we're starting to increase the number of women and diverse communities we're attracting into the Canadian Armed Forces at the same time as we are looking to recover the numbers we have. That is an important element, from our perspective, moving forward. We prioritize women applicants at the military colleges and are creating mentorship opportunities for women officer cadets as they come in.

You also asked the question around the amount of time it takes for people to be ready to perform the duties they have, and that varies, depending upon the nature of the occupation and the nature of the task they undertake. Retention—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off, but I'm limited in time. My question is around the policies around rank as well. I understand the prioritization now, but if we're looking at a pool of individuals who have served a certain amount of time, it's like a capsule in time of who actually served to get them to a place where they could exist now. We heard testimony that there are countries that remove some of the requirements for service when it's based on expertise. For example, I use the example of cyber, or to bring us to a level today of what our country looks like instead of waiting for that level of service to actually have that diversity. Are you looking at those sorts of policies?

Sorry, I just want to be clear because of the limited time.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Yes, and thank you for the clarification.

I would certainly say that we're not looking at a waterfall approach, whereby we simply have to wait for generational recruitment to achieve its outcomes. We want to be looking at opportunities to streamline and go forward.

To that end, I would say at this point in time we are looking at that even at the senior officer level, so looking down at the lieutenant-colonel and colonel level and saying—knowing that there are indeed some critical requirements in moving forward for a promotion—which are the critical ones and which aren't.

That's how I would answer that. The minister probably also has input that she could provide on this.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I most definitely do. We have an employment equity plan between the years of 21 and 26 that recognizes diversity and the LGBTQ2+ community as a designated group. We also have a new promotion and selection process with selection boards that feature procedural improvements, including mandating that one voting member be from an employment equity group. We have ongoing recruitment efforts where we target engagement with communities across Canada to increase representation programs and indigenous representation prioritizing women [Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Ms. O'Connell is out of time.

Colleagues, this is where the minister has a hard stop and needs to leave. I would propose we finish out the second round of questions and then go to the first round on the second hour.

Again, on behalf of the committee, Madam Minister, thank you for your attendance. We appreciate all the work you do and appreciate your continuing attendance before this committee. Again, thank you.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, could I just make one comment?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

By all means, yes.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I just wanted to mention that there was a question from Madame Normandin, my honourable colleague. When she was using the word “supply”, I thought she was referring to supply in terms of our people power, and she may have been referring to supply in terms of approvisionnement in procurements. I'll take that off-line with her and try to make sure I answer her question.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you. I appreciate that, and I'm sure Madame Normandin appreciates that.

With that, again, thank you. We'll no doubt see you again.

Madame Normandin, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to come back to one of Madam Minister's last comments regarding policy changes that would help improve recruitment and retention. I know that efforts are being made.

Can the witnesses elaborate a little more on the general approach in this new attempt to improve recruitment and retention of personnel?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for your question.

I will answer first and then give the floor to Ms. Allen.

First, we're putting a lot more emphasis on the health of personnel to ensure that they want to stay in the Canadian Forces. As the Minister has already mentioned, we will be launching a new strategy in the coming months.

I will stop there and turn the floor over to my counterpart.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

You asked about some specific policy activities that were under way. I would say targeted recruiting is one of those policies that we are looking into to ensure that we are attracting in the right ways and at the right locations for the people we want to bring into the Canadian Armed Forces.

Even as we take a look at basic training after we have done the recruiting, we have moved to a diversified basic training while we are still working within the constraints of COVID. Hopefully, when that is lifted, we won't be doing basic training only in St. Jean. It's truly our centre of expertise for providing basic training, but we're doing small pockets of basic training in other locations around the country while we are looking to increase back to our steady state capability and looking for the increase we need to make the recovery going forward. This temporary, decentralized basic training is another initiative to improve the input that we have of people moving through.

Retention issues and policies related to retention are equally important. As one of your colleagues identified, it's because [Technical difficulty—Editor] lots of money and training in them and it takes time to deliver those capabilities. Retaining individuals is as important as attracting them in the first place. We're looking to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Normandin's time is finished.

Ms. Mathyssen, do you want to take another stab at your question? You have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ms. Allen, you said the answer, ultimately, is that if Canadian former soldiers go against the advice of the Canadian government, they do not receive supports from DND or the government. Is that correct? Is that what you meant?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I reiterated that we are encouraging all former CAF members to adhere to the guidance that's provided by Global Affairs, which identifies the risks to individuals of moving into conflict zones and the risks that can arise from that.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. I'll move on.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer has been doing some tracking of actual capital expenditures since 2018. Those have been underspent in the four years of Strong, Secure, Engaged. The updated spending profile reveals a significant shift in those expenditures to subsequent fiscal years. The issue the PBO found is that if you're shifting the costs to other years, there are increased costs to equipment, delays purchasing needed equipment, and supply chain issues, which cost a lot more money.

What are the additional costs that are going to be incurred by DND? If there aren't any additional costs, what are the long-term affordability....? What will we miss out on in terms of being able to afford...or will we be able to afford less with that money?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's an extremely important question, but she's left you 30 seconds to answer it.

[Bill Matthews]

I'll give it a shot. Maybe we can take it up later.

The member is quite right about the PBO's analysis. It shows a slide into the right. It's not a huge shock in the most recent year, given COVID. There is regular inflation, plus you're also seeing inflation in defence markets. Often it's slightly higher, so there is an impact.

That means one of two things. You have to descope your project to a certain extent. If you were going to buy 10 of item X, maybe you buy only nine. A lot of the initiatives are scalable.

The other possibility is to reallocate resources if there are high-priority projects and you don't want to make that decision. You move money from a lesser-priority project into a higher-priority project.

The third option is additional funding. Those are the three choices one has.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The third option always seems to be attractive to everyone except the person who has to write the cheque.

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Far be it from me to help the NDP get an answer or ask a question, but I'm going to take their question a bit further.

The question referred to mercenaries. If mercenaries go over, we understand from the minister's answer and your answer, Ms. Allen, that there probably will not be any supports for them.

Regarding non-military, non-mercenary, humanitarian efforts from Canadians who are on the ground in Ukraine, if something happens to them, what will the government's response be in terms of supports?

[Bill Matthews]

I think, Mr. Chair, if we're dealing with the counsel or advice to former or current armed forces members, that's one thing. If we're going to this broader subject matter, that's a better question for Global Affairs Canada. Possibly we can take it off-line to see if we can get an answer through them and come back in writing.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Sure. Thank you.

We know the CF-18 is not combat-ready at all. We know the studies have shown that it's no longer a viable option in a fight. We know the competition is basically over. The scores are in. We know who won.

When is that contract going to be filled? I know government answers it, but you guys are on the ground. Will that be filled in 2022?

[Bill Matthews]

There are two aspects to this question. Number one, when will the results of the competition be known? That process is under way. Our colleagues at PSPC are leading that, and we'll leave it to them to announce when they are ready.

Given the CF-18 will be in service for a number of years to come, there are ongoing programs and projects to upgrade the capabilities, because we will be flying those planes probably for the next eight to 10 years. Perhaps the vice chief wishes to add further clarity there.

There are ongoing programs to upgrade the capabilities of the CF-18 as a stopgap.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Who did you say, Mr. Matthews, is doing the procurement process?

[Bill Matthews]

Public Services and Procurement Canada actually runs the procurement process, so that's in their hands—