Evidence of meeting #17 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grazia Scoppio  Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Lieutenant-General  Retired) Christine Whitecross (As an Individual
Youri Cormier  Executive Director, Conference of Defence Associations
John Cowan  Principal Emeritus, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I call this meeting to order. It's just after 3:30 p.m., and I see quorum.

This is meeting number 17 of the Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 31, we are continuing our study of recruitment and retention.

As is the habit of this committee, we have outstanding witnesses, two of whom I understand are on, available and sound-checked, etc.

We have Grazia Scoppio, professor at RMC, and Lieutenant-General Christine Whitecross.

General Whitecross, it's nice to see you again. We're very pleased to welcome you to the committee.

I will ask for five-minute opening statements in the order in which you are listed on the order paper, starting with Ms. Scoppio.

April 25th, 2022 / 3:30 p.m.

Dr. Grazia Scoppio Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Good afternoon. It is my privilege to provide my perspective to inform the committee's study on recruitment and retention in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I am in Kingston, and I would like to briefly acknowledge that Kingston is located on traditional land of the Anishinabe, the Haudenosaunee and the Huron-Wendat. I'm grateful to live and work on these lands.

I will speak on my own behalf, based on my research over the past 20-plus years, which has focused on diversity in the military in Canada and elsewhere.

The Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF, do not reflect Canada’s rich cultural, ethnic, religious and gender diversity. Despite past and current efforts to meet their employment equity goals for representation rates of women, visible minorities and indigenous people, the CAF has failed to meet these goals and has consequently failed to achieve true diversity and inclusion across the organization. This in turn negatively affects operational effectiveness and the legitimacy of the armed forces in the eyes of Canadian society.

There are many reasons for these institutional failures, including the historical reactionary approach of the CAF towards social and cultural change due to its closed, traditional and patriarchal organizational culture; its apparent inability to learn lessons from past mistakes; its hierarchical structures, embedded in the slow bureaucratic systems of the Department of National Defence; unclear accountability; systemic issues related to sexual assault and sexual misconduct; and discrimination towards members who are different from the majority of the CAF membership, who are mainly white, male, heterosexual and Christian.

Specifically in regard to CAF recruiting and retention, over the past 20-plus years several studies and reports by external authorities, the Auditor General of Canada, researchers within the Department of National Defence—such as me—and others outside of DND have collectively identified many problems in these areas. Among the issues I have observed and reported on, the following stand out in the areas of recruiting and retention, listed in no particular order.

Number one, the CAF recruiting system has been inefficient and slow. Number two, there has been inadequate and not timely follow-up with candidates who have applied and not yet received an offer and to provide feedback and timings on each step to the candidates. Number three is a lack of follow-up with those who have rejected offers of employment by the CAF to gain an understanding of the reasons for the rejection. Number four is inadequate or missing data on CAF applicants disaggregated by gender and other intersecting identities, as well as by foreign-born status. Number five, CAF recruiters have not sufficiently reflected the cultural, ethnic and gender diversity of the Canadian population. Number six, CAF recruiting postings have not been seen as key career posts towards promotion.

Number seven, training for CAF recruiters has been insufficient on issues of diversity, equity and inclusion, unconscious bias and related topics. Number eight, not enough information is provided to prospective applicants on the wide spectrum of CAF occupations, as well as on realistic job previews, including family supports. Number nine is that there are insufficient marketing and outreach activities specifically tailored to women, visible minorities, indigenous peoples and other minority groups. Number 10 is insufficient recruiting programs aimed at attracting diverse applicants, aside from the valuable CAF recruiting programs for indigenous people and the 2017 pilot of the women in force program, which, to my knowledge, has never been run again.

Number 11 is scarce or lacking exit interviews with members who are releasing from the CAF. Number 12 is that CAF training and educational activities related to diversity, equity and inclusion have been inadequate, incoherent and uncoordinated. Number 13, the security clearance system has been extremely slow. Last but certainly not least is the requirement of being a Canadian citizen to join the CAF.

Many recommendations have been made to address the issues mentioned, and several more. However, often recommendations have been ignored, they have been acknowledged but not properly implemented, or the implementation has not been tracked and results have not been accounted for. As such, the problems have become endemic.

Ultimately, if social and cultural change is to occur across the CAF, and to restore Canada’s respect and trust in its military, swift actions need to be taken, from recruiting to attraction and retention. These actions need to be tracked, results must be measured, and the leadership must be held accountable.

At the same time, appropriate financial resources and personnel need to be allocated to implement any new activities, programs and processes. As they say, a vision without resources is a hallucination.

This concludes my opening statement. Thank you. Meegwetch.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Professor Scoppio.

Go ahead, Lieutenant-General Whitecross.

3:35 p.m.

Lieutenant-General Retired) Christine Whitecross (As an Individual

Good afternoon, everyone and Mr. Chair.

I actually don't have any opening comments except to say that I retired from the Canadian Armed Forces in December 2020 and haven't necessarily been involved in the substantive recruiting and retention issues since then, but I can certainly offer up my suggestions and my comments on the questions.

I would just add that any comments I make are not necessarily anything to do with recommendations towards the Canadian Armed Forces or anything. Certainly, as a retired member, these are my thoughts and my concerns only.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Making them infinitely more valuable because they are your thoughts....

With that, we'll start our six-minute round.

Ms. Findlay, go ahead please.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Lieutenant-General Whitecross, I want to thank you for your service to Canada, first of all. You started your career as an RMC cadet. Is that correct?

3:35 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

No, regrettably—well, not regrettably, actually—I'm quite proud to say that I went to Queen's.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Wonderful. What made you want to join the Canadian Forces as a young woman at that time?

3:35 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

That's an excellent question. Thanks very much.

I would offer that I joined in 1982, 40 years ago. At that time I had been air cadet and an army cadet. My father was in the military, as was my uncle, and my brothers were all in the reserves. I liked the lifestyle. I thought that I would give it a chance, and I joined while I was at Queen's University, thinking that I would give it a couple of years and see how it went.

Of course, that almost extended to 39 years. Really, it was an interest in the military system. I would just add that I knew about the military because it was in my family. I think one of the biggest issues that we need to come to grips with in terms of the recruiting for potential Canadian Armed Forces members is the awareness by Canadians of the Canadian military, what it does, what it is structured to do and the tremendous opportunities that it has. I had that from family.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

One of the things we've heard in testimony is that we need more visibility of the armed forces, more stationing nearer to urban centres and things like that, where people can become more familiar with the life within the CAF and what service within it means.

What would you say, overall, was your motivation to stay for a career in the Canadian Armed Forces? As you pointed out, it became your lifelong career.

3:40 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

I enjoyed the Canadian Armed Forces. In fact, I'm still very passionate about what the Canadian Armed Forces has done, not just domestically but internationally. I had tremendous opportunities to live in many of the provinces in Canada, including our Canadian Arctic, and to do things that many of my colleagues at the university would never have been able to do. That includes leading men and women in both domestic and international tasks that are important to the Government of Canada's priorities.

I enjoyed it. I enjoyed what it gave me, and I enjoyed the opportunities that it showed me. I enjoyed service to Canada. I know that may sound trite to many, but it meant a tremendous amount to me.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

How seriously do you think the senior military and political leadership took reform and sexual misconduct at DND when you were chief of military personnel and afterwards?

3:40 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

I'll answer that in two parts. First, I'd like to answer, on my own reflection, after having served for so many years and after retiring from the Canadian military, that I wish I had done more. I wish I had been more vocal in many ways on the things that needed to be done, because in answer to the second question, there was, at the time, certainly in 2015 when I took over as the commander of the sexual misconduct response team, a percentage—I wouldn't say necessarily small but a percentage—of Canadian Armed Forces personnel and perhaps defence personnel who didn't think the issue was as significant or as serious as Madame Deschamps had said. I wish, upon reflection, that I could have been far more aggressive in how I was characterizing it and how it was actually affecting men and women in uniform.

Having said that, I think there's a big difference between 2015 and certainly when I retired in 2020, and even today. The fact that these scenarios that have happened or the personnel who have departed in the last number of months.... I think much of that has to do with the fact that people feel okay about reporting. I take some comfort in that.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Did you witness discrimination against LGBTQ+ members of the Canadian Forces during your time?

3:40 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

That's a great question.

Certainly I grew up in the eighties and nineties, having joined in 1982, and I was certainly cognizant of the times when LGBTQ members were sought after and made to release from the Canadian military back in the nineties. I certainly was aware of it. I was fairly young at the time and didn't know what to make of it, to be completely honest.

As I got further and further along in my military career, I like to think that my own tolerance and patience level was fairly good, in that the interactions I had were hopefully positive.

But I have to be honest. I was not aware of many specific incidents that I had actually seen. I had members come to see me, even as late as 2016 or 2017, about the ways that they were treated, in the hopes that I would be able to help them, and I hope that I was actually able to help them. In some cases, I'm still in conversations with them.

I think the system or the organization or the institution is better suited to deal with these sorts of complaints. However, today the report came out and the minister was very clear, and so were the working group members, that the recommendations that have been made for years and years just haven't been applied. I would say that's probably correct.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. May, you have six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

My first question is going to go to Dr. Scoppio.

The armed forces have specific recruitment targets for under-represented groups, but have faced, obviously as you mentioned in your opening statement, persistent challenges in meeting those targets. In your opinion, what factors are driving these challenges?

3:45 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Grazia Scoppio

As I mentioned, there are different pieces to this problem, one being that the face of the recruiters is not necessarily the face of all Canadians, so there's not enough diversity within the recruiters as a group. Their training is insufficient in terms of such things as diversity inclusion, unconscious bias and so on and so forth. The programming is not tailored enough for specific groups.

I gave the example of the aboriginal leadership opportunity year or the aboriginal entry program. Those are excellent programs to attract indigenous people. They have done no such programs for visible minorities, and they did once—one year—a pilot program to attract more women.

I don't see how the CAF is going to get to 25.1% in 2027, unless my math is wrong.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

Dr. Scoppio, have any Canadian allies, any countries around the world, been more successful in recruiting from diverse groups? If so, what are they doing differently?

3:45 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Grazia Scoppio

One of the things, for example in the States, is that being in a recruiting unit is not somebody's career death sentence. Being in a recruiting unit is not seen the same way, so that can be something that we can learn from. It does not follow that the U.S. military, being the largest in the world, is not having recruiting challenges, so that's not the issue. The other thing is that they're much more aggressive in tailoring their recruiting, in particular towards certain groups. We're just not doing enough in that regard.

Again, I want to also underline that if we deplete the recruiting group of their resources, but then we expect them to do more with less, we are contradicting ourselves. If we want them to do more, there are different pieces of this pie that we need to look at, but appropriate resources are key for success here.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

Thank you.

Lieutenant-General Whitecross, first of all, thank you for your service and for appearing here today.

We're seeing a significant shift driven a lot by technology change in the security and defence field towards a greater emphasis on cyber, on remotely piloted weapons systems, on electronic warfare and fast-paced information and intelligence-based operations. In that context, how is the function and role of modern armed forces changing in your view?

3:50 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross

That's a great question. The battles of today are not the battles of 30 years ago. I would venture to say, or I would submit, that if the battles are different, then the people you require in order to meet that battle landscape have to be different as well.

You alluded to it yourself. They need to be technically proficient. Look at main battle tanks and some of our armoured vehicles. A lot of the young men and women who drive them are able to do that so proficiently because they have that great hand-eye coordination they're getting from gaming and other things. There are certain aspects we need of the recruits today that we didn't probably need many years ago.

I would just link that to something else, which is that the war fighter of today is obviously different from in the past, but the requirement for a war fighter has always been that it's someone who's respected and someone for whom there's no incongruency, in my humble opinion, between being a war fighter and being a respectful human being and treating everyone with respect and dignity. I think in today's climate, today's conflict climate, that's even more important because you lose information and data space when you lack trust, whether it's military or public servants, or it doesn't matter, because they feel more compelled to be able to share information and it's so much easier to share information today. It really behooves us in many ways to make sure that the people we do attract and we do retain have that sort of fundamental competency or characteristic about themselves as well.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

I have a few more seconds left here, so I will just simply say thank you to both of you for helping us with this study today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. May.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.