National Defence Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both witnesses.

My questions are directed more to Dr. Scoppio, but I urge Lieutenant General Whitecross to speak if she would like to respond.

My first question relates to the report released today. In the past, we've seen a lot of evidence that minorities, women and LGBTQ+ diversity individuals have faced challenges.

The report says that recommendations made over the past 20 years have still not been acted upon or have been outright ignored. What message does this send?

Should we be concerned that the same thing will keep happening in the future? It could discourage an individual who wants to make the jump and join the forces.

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

That's a good question.

I'm hopeful the new minister, Ms. Anand, will follow up and hold people accountable. I also believe she's going to make sure this time around that action is taken and we have tools to measure progress.

I found it refreshing when the department admitted publicly that almost nothing had been done despite the fact that, for over 20 years, a lot of research and many reports had been pointing out all the existing issues, including discrimination. We promised to right these wrongs and make up for the lack of action, and also ensure that measures would be taken to address these systemic issues.

So I feel the new minister is truly showing leadership and I really trust her. I wasn't surprised by what the committee said, because I just told you the same thing myself. I've briefed generals who thanked me, then did nothing. Still, it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who did research and was ignored.

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much for your response.

I am going to ask you a question that's kind of in the same vein. We know that research has been done on minorities, on the status of women and on LGBTQ+ diversity. However, we parliamentarians hear quite regularly about another topic, but we never or almost never see a report about it, and that's the status of Francophones.

Can you tell me if any studies have been done on a form of discrimination against Francophones in the forces?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I can't name any specific reports with authors and dates. I've heard stories that show that French is not really the second official language in the forces. French is sometimes used when people say “bonjour” at the beginning of a public speech or “merci” at the end. That doesn't constitute bilingual communication by the leaders.

I imagine that Francophones within the forces feel they are in a minority and are not really part of a bilingual organization. In short, I will have to do some research to locate some studies.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Your response speaks volumes. No real research has been done on this issue. I would like to ask another question, which you may be able to answer. If you don't have an answer, that in itself will be an answer.

Are Francophones harder to recruit and retain than Anglophones? For example, do we know if it's more difficult to recruit and retain Francophones, who do make up a significant portion of the population?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I don't think so, since the current recruitment system is bilingual. Everything is bilingual, including the forms and the staff at recruitment centres. If someone asks to be served in either official language, they will be. In terms of recruitment, I believe it's pretty much the same thing. It's more once you're in the organization that the default language is always English.

I'm reassured by the fact that the Royal Military College Saint-Jean is now a university. I can tell you without fear of contradiction that at the Royal Military College here in Kingston, we had individuals who were not too happy. I, for one, was very pleased that the Royal Military College Saint-Jean became a university again offering programs completely in French. I think we can be proud of that.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you to both the witnesses.

I often find myself building on what Madame Normandin asks. In terms of that report we heard from today, there are 258 outstanding recommendations that have come forward out of so many reports after so many years.

This is for both witnesses. I very much appreciate the perspective of both witnesses but, Professor Scoppio, I'm a little bit concerned. I'm wondering if you can comment. The minister and this government have been faced with repeated reports from the status of women committee, from the Auditor General and from Deschamps, and there hasn't been movement. Now there have been conversations about waiting for the other report from Justice Arbour. In terms of where we stand now and continuing to wait, especially for women who are potentially facing that toxic culture of masculinity and sexual assault and so on, what would you have to say about that?

Maybe a bit differently—because I like to squeeze a couple of questions in but sometimes my time is limited—General Whitecross, you left the armed forces but you talked about not having done as much as you had wanted to. In a previous testimony with status of women, you spoke about following up on momentum. Could you address that in terms of another report that we've seen and what we need to do immediately instead of waiting for Arbour?

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

I'll let General Whitecross answer first.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's fine. Do you want to answer?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Sure.

Thanks, Professor.

I have said publicly that I wish I had done more, and, as I mentioned just a couple of minutes ago, I wish I had been a lot more aggressive in my characterization of the issue and of the problems. I'm only one person, but honestly, because of the position I was in, I submit that I probably could have done a lot more.

I did manage to hear some of the reports from the minister that came out today, but there were some problems with the video. I also am heartened by this minister and what she's been able to accomplish already insofar as not only is she accepting change and accepting that much of the responsibility lies with her, the deputy minister and the CDS, but also she is personally engaged and personally motivated to see change. I find a lot of strength in that, so I'm going to take that away.

In the military we say, “Hope is never a course of action”, but I think in this particular case, hope is a course of action, because I do see and I hear that people are anticipating a difference in the monitoring and in the fact that people will be held to account. That makes me feel good, because it's certainly something, as the professor expressed just a moment ago, that hadn't been done. There were all of these recommendations in the report that was submitted today that had not been tackled and had not been addressed. To be completely honest, it just absolutely breaks my heart to think that we have let people down, and I say “we” because I was a senior member of the Canadian Armed Forces for a very long time.

[Dr. Grazia Scoppio]

Just to follow up on what the general said, I am also feeling positive about the new minister. Her action on the interim report from Madam Arbour was swift. She did not hesitate. I've heard—and again this is anecdotal—that unfortunately in some of the cases of investigations that had already started and that had been passed on to civilian police that some civilian police forces said they didn't have the resources. If you were handing over to the civilian police all of these cases that were already started by the MPs, would you not want to talk to them first to just say, “Are we on the same page? Do we have the resources?” There has been swift action, and that's awesome, but did they necessarily have conversations with their civilian police partners? I'm not sure.

The other thing I want to say is about the speed with which this report by Madam Arbour is coming out. It's not out yet. I would like to see it come out, and then I would really like to say we've done enough research that we can implement a number of actions with appropriate resources, with an implementation plan and with accountability by the people who are going to be charged with each of these recommendations.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Gallant, you have five minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Lieutenant-General Whitecross.

First of all, what is the main choke point for people who sign up versus those who follow through until being posted to a unit?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Is that “choke point” as in between being a civilian and being a fully trained military member? Is that what you meant?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

They want to become a member of the military, but something along the way happens or doesn't happen and they never make it to the point where they're posted to a unit.

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I can't speak to what's happening right now because I'm retired, obviously, but I understand that there are choke points, as you described them.

There was literally a stopgap during COVID, for all very good reasons. Then, with some of the measures that had to be put in place because of COVID, when we did start bringing people back into the recruitment centres, that created extra time and space.

There is the portal, if I can call it that, between being signed in at the recruiting centre where you swear allegiance, to going through basic training and then going through your TQ3 or your officer training. Some of that may take a very long period of time, because there isn't the mass of people who are going through that training at that time. It almost has to be a critical path method and all of that. I understand that the Canadian Armed Forces is trying to put more structure in that so there's less waiting between the courses' availability, so that people come in just in time to do the basic training and then they can go off to their trades qualifications training or their officer qualification training and the like.

I mean, there needs to be a lot of work put into that. You can imagine the number of schools across the Canadian Armed Forces. There were 105 occupations—I suspect there are still 105—and each one of those requires certain competencies in terms of technical and professional skill sets. In order to be a fully qualified member of the Canadian Armed Forces, you need to go through certain steps, and sometimes those steps just aren't aligned. I understand that they're trying to address that.

I hope that answers your question.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is there something wrong with soldiers having a warrior mindset on the job?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I've said publicly that there's nothing wrong with being a warrior. A warrior mindset is not incongruent with being somebody who is respectful, works in a very dignified way and treats people properly. They are congruent. You can't have one without the other.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

From the outset, women have said that the sexual assault investigations must be separate from the chain of command.

How do we make that severance? They were asking for that long before the Deschamps report, yet it never seems to happen.

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I can only tell you what I know from when I was serving, and that is that the SMRC, which is outside of the military chain of command, offers.... Again, you need to speak with Dr. Preston.

I understand that they're increasing the scope, availability and resources of the SMRC for the Canadian Armed Forces, which I think is absolutely tremendous and certainly one of the things we hoped for back when we started these discussions. This is available.

There are other ways. Now that the civilian police are dealing with the investigations, people can go directly to the civilian police. There are other options available that were perhaps not available many years ago.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Were you aware of how women and men who reported assaults were effectively drummed out of the military—and to a certain extent, it is still happening—for reporting sexual assaults?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

To be honest, no. I was not aware of any case where somebody was kicked out because they put in a sexual assault claim. I am aware, anecdotally for the most part, of people who were treated poorly. That's not just anecdotally. People I know were treated poorly during the investigation phase. Some of them chose to retire because they didn't want to maintain ties to an institution that didn't treat them well, so would it surprise me...?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

We have Mr. Fisher for five minutes, please.