National Defence Committee on Sept. 27th, 2022

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That's a day job, exactly. He has spent a lot of time with us lately.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that, we have Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both of you for being here.

Major-General Prévost, in your opening remarks you spoke about the doubling of requests every five years, if I wrote that down correctly. Obviously, with climate change, extreme weather events are more prevalent, so it's not surprising to see that increase.

However, based on the nature of our study and some of the information and testimony we've had, I'm curious to know if anyone in CAF—whether it's either of you or those who might report to you—has looked at provincial and territorial budgets or programming to see if there are investments being made at the local levels in terms of this increased frequency of major events like climate change.

The context of this question is that some of the testimony we heard is that there is no urgency in some places to increase resources to be able to deal with these events at the local level because CAF has become the first line of request, etc. I'm just curious to know if that has been looked at at all and if there's any...I don't want to say “any truth to it”, because I'm sure the testimony here was incredibly truthful, but is there any data backing that up or have you actually engaged to help local authorities also increase their capacity as we're seeing more frequent extreme weather events domestically?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

We have not looked at this. This would be Public Safety's mandate to discuss with provinces on emergency management. Obviously, every level of government has its own responsibility in terms of emergency management, and you would think that every government has at heart the safety of its own citizens.

What I'll say, though, is that what we've observed over the last three years is increased coordination and increased awareness and understanding of each jurisdiction in terms of capabilities, and we have.... The chair laughed at my “speed dial”, so I'll say that we have a Teams speed dial conference that gets stood up when these crises happen, and what we've seen is increased resilience.

Obviously, all levels of government in every province are watching climate change. At the same time, there are places where it's more difficult to have all the resources in place. I think of all the first nation and isolated communities we have in Canada. This is where the CAF, through the pandemic, spent a lot of attention in doing an analysis on what we can do for those communities, because they're difficult to access. They don't have the planning capacity and all the resources available.

All that is to say that I haven't looked into specific investments in provinces, but what we can see is an increased resilience pan-government.

Thank you.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you. That's helpful.

I'd like to follow up on one of your answers. You mentioned, in terms of the reservists, that sometimes you have more people putting their hands up than you need for the particular event.

In a different study, and I'm tying together the two studies.... We've seen recent media reports, too, of a recruitment issue in CAF. Is there any look at or thought about creating some sort of unit specifically to react to natural disasters or emergency situations domestically, as a specific recruitment idea? I think there are a lot of Canadians who might want to put their hand up to join CAF, but some of the potential international commitments might not be feasible. We heard this in a different study on retention and recruitment.

Is this an idea? If you clearly see reservists putting their hands up, there is a huge desire for Canadians to serve domestically in this time. Is there a thought about creating some sort of unit as a recruitment idea, or is there no discussion on that level, based on the style that recruitment is—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That was a long question. Give a short answer, please.

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I will provide a short answer.

As far as I'm aware, there has been no study.

I would emphasize the great work done by the whole team protecting Canadians. Being in the reserves is a voluntary decision, and they work in a voluntary capacity that allows them to respond domestically or internationally, per their own decision. It's great to see them providing great value to Canadians in Atlantic Canada as we speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Allison, you have one question.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

As we look at the potential down the road for civil unlawfulness, riots, disturbances and stuff like that, what type of role...? We often talk about bringing in CAF for events like that. We're talking about a natural disaster, but what about when it comes to civil unrest? What would you see your role being? What would be a requirement if you were called in to help in a particular area?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

That's a great question.

When it comes to assistance to law enforcement, this is something the Canadian Armed Forces can do, but it is something I think everybody has to be careful with. In the Canadian Armed Forces, we prefer to provide assistance to law enforcement in a supporting role. If there are ways we can assist law enforcement without performing law enforcement tasks ourselves, that's always better, for multiple reasons.

When these discussions arise.... It requires very good discussions between the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Public Safety, who would be making such a request. It is best to employ the Canadian Armed Forces in any role in the periphery of civil unrest, rather than dealing with the law enforcement itself.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Mr. May, you have one question.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for sharing their time with us so readily and frequently.

I know that often in your position, you can't address questions that you're not asked, so I want to open it up to ask what we haven't asked you. What recommendations would you bring to the table that we may not have thought of?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Maybe I'll start.

I think we have some challenges ahead—not only in the CAF, but as a whole of society—with climate change. It's something we have to pay attention to. Our defence policy update, coming this fall, is looking at that issue: how we need to restructure and how we need to get additional resources and capabilities.

With the resources we have right now, we're able to meet one of our core missions. What's encouraging, as well, is the whole-of-government table—all governments—that has been stood up to increase the resilience to better protect Canadians.

Go ahead, Josh.

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to comment.

As was mentioned several times during this hearing, the number of times the CAF has been requested to assist, either domestically or internationally, has continued to increase, and it certainly won't be going down in the future—at least in the near future.

We are of course bringing together the team of the CAF and the different component parts, be it the regular force, the reserve force, rangers or public servants. That really creates a great strength, which allows us to meet the requirements of any emergency, and perhaps that's the last point I would leave on that particular caseover.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Normandin, you have one question.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask a question somewhat outside the specific scope of calling on the CAF. In terms of coordination on the ground, correct me if I'm wrong, it's the public safety agencies in the provinces that coordinate all partners on the ground, right?

So when two partners want to do something together, they have to make sure that they go through the public safety agencies before setting up an initiative. Does that work well?

Are there things that need to be reviewed, especially since we will likely see more and more partners involved, like the CAF, firefighters, the Red Cross and so on?

Should command be reviewed and improved for the future?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, I will answer and then see if my colleague would like to add something.

The member is absolutely right. We receive requests for assistance from the provinces and the resources provided are handled by their emergency management centre. It's important that the centre control the resources. Of course, many civilians are doing things on their own, even though that might not be well coordinated, but when it comes to government resources, coordination must be done at the provincial emergency management centres. The CAF is always there to support those centres.

As I mentioned earlier, from the outset, we provide resources to the provincial centres based on the nature and magnitude of the emergency, to help them plan things and coordinate the day-to-day allocation of resources.

Brigadier General, is there anything you'd like to add?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

The CAF always works under the authority of civilian organizations in order to meet their needs. In terms of the guidance provided at a higher level, whether it comes from the provincial or federal government, the local level does a very good job coordinating and people really want to come together to make it work when the time comes to help Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Next is Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Just to build from that coordination, that ability to work with all those civilian-led.... If the government ultimately were to create a volunteer NGO-based response, a civil disaster response body, does the CAF have the capacity to actually do the training for them, either regionally or in some different form? Is that capacity there now, considering the difficulties we have in terms of recruitment and retention?

[BGen Josh J. Major]

Mr. Chair, thank you for that question.

It's hard to speculate right now on what an entity such as that would require in terms of training or coordination. Certainly, if it were to be something that would be set up in the future, that is something we'd have to look at to see what training, if any, the CAF would be able to provide to ensure we could seamlessly coordinate if required for a future event.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Before I call on Mr. Fisher for a thank you, I just want to ask a question. The government is about to do SSE 2.0. That is a policy document, so it's policy people who input into that document. Your role, as I understand it, is that whatever the policy is, that is what you implement. That's your role. Can you point us to someone who is in the military shop, presumably in the policy shop, who has been giving some thought to these questions as to the changing relationship between civil authority and, for want of a better term, military aid?

As you can see, a lot of the questions that were asked here were largely policy questions, what-ifs. I'm sure both of you have thought about it a lot, but you're not necessarily the people we should be asking these questions. You can also see that members are really engaged in this subject matter, because the questions were pretty high-level questions. Is there some place you could point us to, some individual or shop you could point us to, that would allow us to engage in what is more of a policy discussion?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

You're absolutely right; these are policy questions. At the same time, military uniforms—me, for instance—are advising those policy directorates on what our advice is. Ultimately, the chief will also provide his advice to the minister.

We do have an entire policy section that's looking at North America, domestic response, NORAD—so Canada and the U.S., basically. They will be the best people to go to, and we can provide those names after the session if you'd like.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That would be appreciated.

That brings our time to a close.

I know that Mr. Fisher wanted to say thank you.