National Defence Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I don't have a minute and a half's worth of questions, but I want to acknowledge that you mentioned our military families. I appreciate that you spoke to the support that military families need as well and the contribution they make when a member serves for Canada. I want to thank you very much for that.

Mr. Chair, I'm good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Go ahead, Ms. Normandin. You have six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you to our three witnesses. Their being here is very appreciated.

I'd like to start with maritime surveillance. Could you tell us about the co-operation between the CAF and the Canadian Coast Guard? In particular, I'd like to hear about the possibility of arming Coast Guard ships or equipping them with military capability.

Where does Canada's surveillance fall short, particularly when it comes to the presence of foreign nuclear submarines in Canadian waters?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

Thank you for your question.

We have very strong co-operation when it comes to surveillance in the Arctic. That is thanks to Canada's three maritime security operations centres, where a number of government departments and agencies work together.

I'm not convinced that what's missing on our ships are weapons and guns. The real issue is our ability to ensure surveillance across the entire Arctic region. Many initiatives are under way, and I wouldn't say our current surveillance capability is poor. Nevertheless, the modernization of NORAD will help us enhance our Arctic surveillance capability in every domain, especially the maritime domain.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Does anything need improving as far as maritime surveillance goes, other than radar capability?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

We can always improve. For example, we tested a new sonar system, called towed reelable active-passive sonar, a portable underwater sonar system that records passive data. It was deployed on the HMCS Harry DeWolf last year when transiting the Northwest Passage, and it was successful at detecting submarines.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

My next question may sound simple, but I imagine it's quite complex. Whose presence in the Arctic poses the bigger risk or problem, Russia's or China's?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

That's a great question.

It depends on what you look at. As far as submarines are concerned, it's Russia, but China currently has the greater surface vessel capability. In terms of ice capability in the Arctic, the two are comparable.

We haven't really identified a direct threat at this time. It's more of an indirect threat to the international order based on rules and standards.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I actually have a question on the international dimension. It's a bit more policy-oriented, but I'm going to ask it anyways.

The U.S. does not recognize the Northwest Passage as being in Canadian waters. Is that something we should be concerned about going forward given the message it sends to potential enemies?

Should we move away from our current approach of agreeing to disagree on the matter?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

That's a great policy question. I'm going to leave that one for my counterparts at the department of foreign affairs.

I will say, though, that the regulatory protections covering the Arctic Archipelago are very strong, thanks to the Northern Canada Vessel Traffic Services Zone Regulations and the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act. The legislation does a good job of addressing Canada's sovereignty.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, and I will try to speak with your counterparts.

Since we have representatives of Canada's air, maritime and land defence here, I'd like to hear about weaknesses that need to be addressed in each of those domains to improve continental defence.

[LGen Eric Kenny]

I'll start.

As far as air- and space-based threats are concerned, the focus is more on Russia than onChina. That doesn't necessarily mean a threat is looming tomorrow or even next year, as the chief of the defence staff said. However, Russia already has the capability to reach North America if it chose to.

As for the future, China is working on its ability to go farther into North America should it wish to.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That opens the door to my next question. Is the use of drones a possibility, or is the region so vast that a drone lacks the autonomy required for surveillance?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you for your question.

We have a project under way to acquire a remotely piloted aircraft system. If all goes well, we will have a contract in place by 2024 to purchase drones that will be based in Greenwood, Nova Scotia, and Comox, British Columbia. They will be able to take off from Yellowknife, as well as land there.

We will be able to carry out missions all over Canada lasting many hours, a capability we don't currently have. That will be extremely important for our sovereignty.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Next is Ms. Mathyssen, for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

As is usually the case, Madame Normandin took a lot of my questions.

I want to follow up and continue on drones. In a past study we went back to the Canadian Rangers. One of the witnesses said that there has to be a good balance. In terms of that question that Madame Normandin asked on drone capacity, how does that factor in to boots on the ground and balance? In furthering that drone capacity, where do you find that balance?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

The reality is that we need to be able to see threats or impacts to our sovereignly first to be able to then deter or defeat them if required. With drones specifically, or the remotely piloted aircraft system project when it is delivered, as early as 2026, what we're anticipating is increased domain awareness, at least from air- and ground-based perspectives. We couple that with some of the NORAD modernization announcements of space-based capabilities that will give us enhanced communications, as well as surveillance from space, to provide us with a capacity, combined with over-the-horizon radars that we discussed earlier, to have that domain awareness. Once we have the domain awareness, we can take appropriate actions. We can take—considering the vast size of Canada—the resources and put them in the right place.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of that collaboration, on the ground when I'm able to visit a ship, a potential aircraft, and so on, they talk about that ability in a more research or surveillance intelligence type of way. I was on HMCS Halifax and then on a Boeing plane that's being used for that surveillance, potentially. It certainly is in the States.

They drop mechanisms, ultimately, to detect those submarines. One of the big questions I had is, how do you recover a lot of what's being dropped, as it falls to the sea floor? Can you talk about that kind of waste, the environmental impact and how we're making changes in that technology?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

It's an excellent point.

We are examining everything that we do in the Canadian navy to make sure that we are conscious of the environmental impact. The system you referred to sounds a lot like sonobuoys. As we look at systems like those, we make sure that it is an expendable. It does ultimately sink to the bottom of the ocean. We make sure, to the extent we possibly can, that we minimize the impact on the environment of that and that there is no harm to any of the life in the sea as well.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is there a future program, though, for that to be recoverable?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

Recoverable is very challenging, given the number that we use. We are always working to make sure that we don't do any harm to marine mammals. There are programs on both coasts right now that are using a series of sensors to detect and track cetaceans in our operating areas to make sure that we can remain clear of them. We are working with scientists to make sure that we understand the impact of all of our operations on life in the oceans and on the ocean environment and that we minimize that impact wherever possible. The principle is to do no harm.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

With regard to search and rescue, there has been obviously a lot of conversation about the replacement of our fleets. There's the stress upon the actual vessels that we have. I believe that vessels had to be shipped out to the west coast in an emergency situation because they didn't have what was needed on the west coast. How are we finding that balance?

I was able to visit Halifax Shipyards, and they're building further vessels, but how are we dealing with that capacity right now?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

The Canadian Forces operates an integrated logistics system. If we are short a part on either of Canada's two main naval operating bases, then we will look for that part at either the central depot in Montreal, typically, or on the other coast to make sure we can sustain that operational capability. Whenever we do that, we do it in consciousness of the fact that there's an extra effort to take it off a platform in service and put it back onto the other one, but that is part of the management of operational readiness.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The increased volume of activity in the Arctic is commercial as well, right? It's not just in that military sense. There's just a lot more going on, potentially, and there's a lot more danger, as you mentioned, in terms of climate change on either end and the need for that search and rescue capability. How is that furthering the balance between both our coasts and now a far more active Arctic?

[VAdm Angus Topshee]

For questions related to search and rescue, I'll defer to my friend from the Canadian Air Force.

I will say that the way the navy looks at the Arctic environment is that we treat it as an expeditionary theatre. That means we need to deploy with all of the capabilities that we require to be able to operate up there, because we recognize the limited capacity of Arctic territories to support other things. We don't want to take away the resources from the local communities. We want to make sure that we come with everything we need to be able to operate and that we are a net benefit to the people of the north whenever we're operating up there.