National Defence Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2022

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What safeguards would have been put in place to ensure that our competitors in that games event were shielded from incursions into the information and electronics that our military would be carrying to those games?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

At this point, it would be a bit of speculation on my part, because I don't know what measures were taken. I would expect that the measures were briefings on the intelligence concerns around being in the People's Republic of China, and that would—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

General, I'm wondering what was done to shield them from incursions by the PRC, given that they were in one of their camps.

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Right. As I was trying to say, the briefings that normally take place will inform them about their obligations to protect their information, if they're....

For the most part, when we travel to China, even as a member who is on leave.... If you're going there as a tourist, you tend to be discouraged from bringing your electronic devices, because of the potential risk that is there. I've even seen in open source media that members should be careful when they bring their telephone to China.

That would have taken place, but there wouldn't necessarily have been any specific shielding. There would have been information sessions. There wouldn't necessarily have been members bringing any of their work communications devices. It would have been only personal communications devices, but there would have been security briefings to that effect.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Employees from other departments are subject to the official secrets act for life. Are there any members or any ranks of the Canadian Armed Forces that are also subject to the terms of the official secrets act for life?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

The provisions of the Security of Information Act continue. Your obligations to the Security of Information Act continue as a military member even in retirement. It's just a matter of the jurisdiction thereof.

All members of the Canadian Forces are subject to the Security of Information Act, and we remain subject to the provisions of the Security of Information Act even in retirement, but again, our jurisdiction as the Canadian Armed Forces ends with retirement.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

Mr. Fisher, you have the final five minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much, General.

General, you talked about loyalty—loyalty built over decades. You spoke about your 34 years. I can hear the pride in your voice, and I want to thank you for your service.

I also want to say that I—and Canadians, I think—certainly have an absolute trust in our Canadian Armed Forces, and I suspect that follows through to Canadian veterans as well.

We've used the word “speculative” a lot today. We don't know of an individual. We don't know if this is actually happening. We know that we saw it in a report, and this committee takes it seriously because there's a report out there, but we really don't know. We don't have the answers.

I appreciate your being here today. You're kind of thrown in front of the wolves because you don't have the answers to a media report that has or has not been proven.

With respect to Ms. Mathyssen's question about radicalization, I actually do think it's relevant. Why else would a Canadian veteran—if it even occurred—consider training a Chinese pilot with Canadian intelligence? I actually think it's relevant, and I want to know if the Canadian Armed Forces is looking at radicalization within its members.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

If I've said that Ms. Mathyssen's question is not relevant and that it is a realm of speculation from Ms. Mathyssen, it is similarly speculation for Mr. Fisher, although I think his phrasing might have been a little more elegant.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're invited to answer the question.

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Would you like me to take a crack at that or just deny—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[BGen Denis Boucher]

[Inaudible—Editor] answer that one as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's why you're the Brigadier-General. You get to decide.

[BGen Denis Boucher]

That's outstanding, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

What I can tell you is that inside of defence it has always been the case that we are looking in terms of the security of Canadian Forces members and Canadian society at large. That is our role—to defend Canadian citizens and Canada—so any concerns with regard to radicalization are of concern.

There obviously have been reports out there that speak to the potential for members to have been radicalized inside, but all of you are also certainly aware of the significant efforts inside defence to ensure that we root out any potential for concerns around this space while trying to ensure that we espouse the values of the Canadian Forces to the greatest extent possible.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

With my final time, General, thank you for that answer. I know these questions are all sort of touching on the same topics, and you're phrasing your responses a bit differently for each of us, but can you elaborate for our committee on procedures that are in place to protect sensitive CAF information?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Certainly.

In terms of procedures, we have a number of policies in place with regard to all manner of security, whether that be industrial security, physical security, personnel security or the security of information, information technology and information management. All of those come into play. Depending on the type of information you're dealing with, or the type of security in particular that you're dealing with, there are different measures in place.

Training is primordial here. It's about ensuring people understand the sensitivity of the information or the equipment they're dealing with and their obligations under the Security of Information Act, because in the end, regardless of the type of security we're dealing with, it has to do with information. As members leave the Canadian Forces, they don't leave with hard copies of the information that is out there, so it's really what resides within their memory banks, their internal memory banks, if you will, with regard to how they do that.

Ensuring that we train them appropriately with regard to how sensitive it is to protect the information, that's where we go in terms of protecting that information, and we remind them of those obligations throughout their career. Then, in the very last days of their career, as they actually retire, they have an obligation to fill out disclosure forms that remind them of their obligations under the Security of Information Act.

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It provides a level of comfort. [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I'm sorry, but that was cut off there.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It provides us with a bit of comfort in this committee. I want to thank you again for your 30 years of service and your loyalty to the Canadian Armed Forces.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

I see a waving hand from Mr. Bezan, so before I ask General Boucher to leave, Mr. Bezan, go ahead.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, based upon today's testimony and also information that's been coming to light today, including from the Sunday Guardian, which is suggesting that there are also Canadian companies in Canada training fighter pilots from the People's Liberation Army, I'd like to move the following motion:

That in our current study of former Royal Canadian Air Force pilots having undertaken employment to train members of the People's Liberation Army Air Force, we invite CANLink Aviation, which operates Moncton Flight College, and other flight schools in Canada that may be training pilots from the People's Liberation Army, to appear at committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. The motion, in my judgment, is properly on the floor. It relates to the subject matter that is on the floor. We are, however, running out of time. I'll recognize Ms. Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You saw me coming, Mr. Chair.

I'd like a copy of the motion in French, please.