National Defence Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, colleagues. We're back.

We have with us Brigadier-General Denis Boucher, director, general defence security, and I have an unwelcome call about duct cleaning as we speak.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think I should put them on....

[A voice]

Tell them that your ducks are clean but your goose is dirty.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's what my brother says. He says, “I don't have problems with ducks; I have problems with geese.”

Anyway, this is a great way to introduce you, General Boucher.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that, we'll look forward to your five-minute statement, which hopefully will not involve either ducks or geese.

Thank you.

[Brigadier-General Denis Boucher, Director General, Defence Security, Department of National Defence]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you today. I completely understand that call. I get the duct-cleaning advertisement on a regular basis, so you're not the only one, and I would be happy to speak about geese when we talk about hunting on a weekend, but that's not for today.

Sir and members of the panel, my name is Brigadier-General Denis Boucher. I am the director general of defence security and the chief security officer for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence.

I have several responsibilities. I was appointed as a chief security officer by the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff. As such, I am responsible for ensuring the security of the information, assets and members of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.

As the director general of defence security, I exercise overall responsibility for the leadership, development and management of the defence security program, and I am accountable to the vice chief of the defence staff, to the deputy minister and to the chief of the defence staff for the integrated management of the defence security program.

National Defence's security program includes elements of security management, planning, security-related risk management, monitoring and compliance, performance measurement and evaluation, in addition to integration with other departments.

Under the program, the Department of National Defence has policies and guidelines based on Treasury Board directives, and these govern the program. These cover the eight mandatory checks in the Treasury Board directive on security management.

Thank you once again, Mr. Chair, for having given me this opportunity to speak to the committee. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, sir.

We'll turn to Mr. Bezan.

Go ahead for six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, General Boucher, for joining us today.

We invited you here to discuss the story coming out of the U.K., that Canadian fighter pilots who have retired are being employed by a South African company that is directly training pilots from the People's Liberation Army in Beijing. Can you speak to that story and to what steps should have been taken by your staff in investigating that possibility?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

We are aware of the allegations, and obviously this matter is very concerning to us, because we take all matters with regard to security very seriously. We're aware of the allegations, but we know these are post-employment activities. These are former members of the Canadian Forces, so they don't fall within the jurisdiction of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Can you confirm that there are Canadian trainers or former RCAF fighter pilots working, as has been alleged?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I can confirm that I have read media reports to that effect. I am not privy to any specifics with respect to who the individuals are, and I can't confirm those details with regard to the company. I'm not aware of the company in question, but we are aware of these allegations. We have referred the matter to our federal partners, and we'll make sure they receive the support they require should they wish to investigate these matters further.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

With respect to retired fighter pilots and other personnel within the Canadian Armed Forces, you mentioned provisions under the National Defence Act. Are they also bound by the Security of Information Act?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Members of the Canadian Armed Forces, while in service, are obviously bound by the National Defence Act as well as the Security of Information Act. In retirement, they are still bound by the provisions of the Security of Information Act; however, jurisdiction over that falls to our federal partners. The Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence no longer have jurisdiction over retired members.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Do people of that level of training and know-how, with respect to warfare fighting and the tactics we as Canadians and members of NORAD and NATO employ, ever sign non-disclosure agreements?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

While in service, when a member is granted a security clearance, there are absolutely forms that they sign, acknowledging the responsibilities with regard to the Security of Information Act and the possible repercussions of any issue that could occur or any disclosure of that kind of information that would be not authorized.

They have to acknowledge those responsibilities under the Security of Information Act when they are granted a security clearance. Prior to release, they have to sign a disclosure form again. That reminds them of their obligations under the Security of Information Act. That is the last time we would have any jurisdiction over them.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces that had that level of security clearance signed those non-disclosure agreements but then went out and trained the forces of our adversaries, would you, in your mind, see that as a breach of their obligations, both under legislation as well as under legal documents like non-disclosure agreements?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I think it's sort of a speculative question. I don't know the details with regard to the type of employment these members may have had. Again, these are allegations. I haven't seen anything specific with regard to that.

If there is anything that would come to light in that they would have disclosed any classified information, again, that falls to our federal partners to investigate and follow up on. It's very difficult to know what kind of information they could have shared, and it would be totally speculative on my part.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

Do you believe that fighter pilots we have currently serving and those who formerly served are targets by malign foreign actors as individuals that they've tried to hire away—as you know, in a lot of cases, money talks—to advance their own interests?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

Again, this would be a bit of a speculative question from my perspective. It definitely does not fall within the purview of my office. I would have to speculate on whether or not it would be of interest. I would think that any former military member potentially could be of interest, but that doesn't necessarily mean people will be hired.

We trust our members, the Canadian Forces, certainly while they're serving, in their obligations. One would like to think that when they retire, some of that loyalty remains with them.

As a 34-year member of the Canadian Forces, I can tell you that once I retire I'm not about to turn my back on Canada for money. I would like to think a lot of our members would do the same thing.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You talk about “federal partners” for investigating those who may have been lured away, as we've seen in the media reports. Who are those federal partners? What type of role do you think they're playing, if these individuals are located out of the country?

[BGen Denis Boucher]

I don't necessarily speak with the federal partners personally, based on my role, but the federal partners we are in contact with would be the Department of Justice. They would have to look at the investigation, presumably from the RCMP perspective. That's where we would be going. That's all I can speak to on this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. May, you have six minutes.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witness for being here.

I'm listening very closely to Mr. Bezan's questions, and I think this is going to get really repetitive really quickly, but I have a few maybe more elaborative questions here to allow you to speak in more detail to some of these questions.

Can you speak to how the Security of Information Act, the National Defence Act and the code of service discipline apply to members of the armed forces in terms of the security of information?