National Defence Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

You also said to the last questioner that there was an agreement with your recommendations. Thank you for that. If that's something that can move us forward in a more expedient manner, then that's a good thing.

Can you name some of the specific initiatives the government is undertaking to address some of the recommendations in your report? What are some of the things we're doing, not exclusively but.... For instance, Transport Canada is working to address the national aerial surveillance program fleet. Other examples are welcome as well.

[Karen Hogan]

I might turn to Nick to see if he has anything that he'd like to add to that, but it's a little early on.

We get departmental responses to our recommendations. They signal agreement and give us a bit of a high-level plan of action, which we publish in our audit reports. It's then up to each department to develop a detailed action plan, put that into action and progress on it.

Those, I expect, will have clear accountabilities, timelines and steps. I have not reviewed their detailed action plans, but they typically provide them to the public accounts committee when they are called for a hearing. I would expect that once public accounts sits down to study this report, a detailed action plan will be made publicly available.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Does Mr. Swales want to speak to the aerial surveillance program fleet or maybe some other initiatives you might see that will line up recommendations?

[Nicholas Swales]

We would require more details on what Transport Canada intends to do about the NAS program.

I would say the issue of ships was also addressed in our 2021 report on the national shipbuilding strategy. In that, Public Services and Procurement Canada, in particular, committed to some actions around better ways of monitoring scheduling, which they are in the process of implementing. Action is being taken there.

Clearly, in the time between that report and this one, it hasn't yet borne fruit.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

How did the massive national defence investments in NORAD modernization tie in with our overall maritime domain awareness?

[Nicholas Swales]

The focus of our audit was on surveillance of waters, which is separate from surveillance of the airspace, which is the responsibility of NORAD, mostly. The one area where they do overlap is that NORAD has a maritime warning mission, as it's called, but that really comes at the tail end of this maritime surveillance exercise.

We talk at one point about the effort to integrate information systems. That information is then passed to NORAD and NORAD combines that with its intelligence work to provide that maritime warning mission. The investments that have been talked about so far for additional radars and so on don't really touch on this. We need to get our act together on integrating our maritime information before NORAD will be able to contribute here.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Are we making other investments where you see us moving in the right direction?

[Nicholas Swales]

In terms of the maritime surveillance, I think we would need to see the detailed action plans of the entities to know how they're going to deal with some of the issues we've raised.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Did you go to school on other Arctic nations as to what they're doing for maritime awareness and what things we might be able to learn from them?

[Karen Hogan]

No. In the scope of our audit, we really did focus on what the federal government was doing. We highlight that there are interactions and reliance with international partners, but we did not look at the work they are doing. I think it's well known that the Canadian government doesn't spend a great deal right now on military investments. I think we're seeing it through the national shipbuilding strategy and the additional delays.

It isn't so much about what you're spending, but about getting faster at finding the replacement equipment and having it operational. That's what Canada should be focusing on.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Did your office consider making a visit to the Arctic when you were doing this report? Do you think that would have allowed a different perspective?

[Karen Hogan]

Typically we do always spend some time with indigenous communities and take a trip up, but because of the pandemic, we did restrict our travel for this audit. We focused on what awareness the federal organizations had here.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much. The time has expired.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests for being here.

Ms. Hogan, I believe this is the third time in two weeks that I've seen you testify before committee. Yet, this is the first time I've heard such a disturbing and worrisome speech that underscores such serious potential repercussions. I'm not usually an alarmist, but in this case it's at all levels: ships, aircraft, and so. All of this has implications not only for national security, but also for Indigenous peoples and for supply, among other things.

Do you feel the same way I do, that we're in a pretty crappy situation?

[Karen Hogan]

I would hope that all the issues that I raise in Parliament will be discussed. In my opinion, all of the topics I spoke of should encourage everyone to debate them.

What we saw here is very much cause for concern, in our view. We have a presence in the Arctic, but if we don't take action immediately, we will see very significant gaps in the next decade.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you hopeful that this can be done?

[Karen Hogan]

I feel that there is goodwill there, but we can only confirm if it's feasible once we see that action is being taken.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Have you been asked to comment on national defence matters in the past few years?

[Karen Hogan]

Personally, I haven't done so since I took up my duties two and a half years ago. However, for several decades, the Office of the Auditor General has tabled reports covering procurement, gaps and favourable aspects of national defence.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

To your knowledge, did any of the reports tabled in the previous 10 years contain recommendations similar to yours? Surely there must have been some.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes. In our report on the national shipbuilding strategy, which we tabled in early 2021, we showed that there were gaps and delays in replacing ships. We recommended that time be taken to readjust and get shipbuilding on track. What we're seeing today in our Arctic waters surveillance audit is that there are even more delays, but the breathing room is gone. It really is time to act.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

To your knowledge, based on the discussions you've had, has an action plan been prepared? I know you would like to see some action, but have steps been taken to establish an action plan, given the urgency of the situation?

[Karen Hogan]

As my colleague said, we know there is an action plan to improve the management of contracts pertaining to vessels. Now, we need be sure to keep a closer eye on contracts for other ships, for aircraft and for satellites. We need to analyze these things, but not endlessly. We really need to make a decision and move forward.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Action must be taken, I understand that, and we're not necessarily seeing any action being taken.

In your opinion, is the government's current failure to act putting national security at risk?

[Karen Hogan]

What we saw is that we do have a presence in the Arctic. Yes, there are gaps, but we still have our allies, who we rely on. However, it's time to act now, or the gaps will become significant in the next decade.