National Defence Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Jody Thomas]

I think you've seen that the RCMP is doing an investigation to understand what's going on from the criminal perspective and who those sources could be and whether there was an exchange of money, so that investigation is going on. As well, CSIS is constantly looking at foreign actors and state actors and their activities in Canada.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you for clarifying that you're not denying the report. We have heard this from the government, you know, that the news story in The Globe and Mail was false and that kind of thing, so you're—

[Jody Thomas]

What I've said is that the Globe story was there. I have no evidence that says there were 11 candidates who received money.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

All right.

In your opening statement, you talked about briefing the Prime Minister on situational awareness. We have a damning Auditor General's report that talks about the looming obsolescence of nearly every bit of kit we use to manage domain awareness in the Arctic, especially our satellite surveillance. We have a nine-year gap projected in the replacement of that system.

How does that affect domain awareness in the Arctic and your ability to brief the government, to brief the Prime Minister, on situational awareness?

[Jody Thomas]

I think domain awareness is a critical element of the NORAD modernization that's been described to you and certainly was announced earlier this year. The approach that has been taken to domain awareness is a system of systems, so that there is not just one source of information—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have less than a minute left. How are you going to deal with the nine-year gap? What's the plan B on the nine-year gap?

[Jody Thomas]

We're working with the Department of National Defence and—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

There's no plan yet—

[Jody Thomas]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not in the Department of National Defence. That is their responsibility and they are actively ensuring that there is no fail in our ability to have domain awareness in the Arctic.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

How are you going to do that when there's going to be a nine-year gap between the projected failure and the new system?

[Jody Thomas]

There are alliances we can have and other satellites in space in rotation where we can obtain information—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I have to cut you off there. We're out of time. I appreciate the answer.

Mr. May, you have the clean-up for the last five minutes.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

I wanted to bring us back to focusing on the Arctic a little more here, given that is the topic we're supposed to be talking about.

Back in 2018—we already discussed this—China released its official Arctic paper, in which it declared itself a near-Arctic state. Most of the allies I have spoken to chuckled, but there are serious consequences to drawing that distinction. Within that document, China talks about the economic possibilities that the region offers, but it also talks about China developing military projection capabilities that would extend into the Arctic region.

Can you share the implications of China's Arctic policy on Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic?

[Jody Thomas]

China's interest in the Arctic is threefold, I would say.

One is economic, absolutely. It has shorter shipping routes from Europe and it will save them significant money.

Two is that it is expansionist. That's the determination of themselves as a near-Arctic state, but they have a voracious appetite for hydrocarbons, for rare earth minerals and for fish, so they see it as a critical element of their sustainability as a nation, and we have to ensure that the rich resources that are in the Canadian Arctic are protected.

Even science is always a huge issue when we're talking about national security. Yes, that need to share science for the benefit of all is critical, but we also have to be aware of and careful about what's being collected on science missions in the Arctic when they send icebreakers to the Arctic.

Understanding what is being done when they are there and ensuring that we have some management of it, those are the critical elements.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

In your conversations with our allies, what is their view of China's Arctic policy paper?

[Jody Thomas]

I would say it is absolutely in-line with ours.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Are they taking different steps? What are they doing to respond to that Arctic paper?

[Jody Thomas]

You have seen that the United States has announced its Arctic foreign policy, which Jordan can speak to in some detail, if you're interested.

We're seeing the U.S. Coast Guard and the U.S. Navy each having an Arctic strategy now. The U.S. is renewing its icebreaker fleet, particularly the large icebreakers, for the exact same reason that we are. Our co-operation with the United States is, of course, seamless.

[Mike MacDonald]

If I may add very quickly, there are dedicated bodies in which Canada and the U.S. work exclusively on Arctic intelligence issues. It's also discussed in Five Eyes bodies when we look at policy issues and operational issues, specifically focusing on the Arctic.

That's where the greatest strength comes from. It's the long allegiance of intelligence co-operation.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I have a minute and a half left, and I want to hear from Jordan.

However, in your response, can you include not just the U.S. response but what Canada is doing to curb attempts by China to assert itself in the north?

[Jordan Zed, Interim Foreign and Defence Policy Adviser to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office]

I have a couple of points to pick up on.

The first is to say that there are a number of initiatives within the Arctic Council that continue to be pursued, even as Russia is not involved in those. Many of them don't involve Russia. They involve the full range of Arctic states, so it is important to reiterate that a lot of the work on research, on environmental sustainability and on the importance of drawing on and understanding the role of indigenous peoples and communities is all ongoing. That's work that continues to happen across all of those areas.

I would say that, in addition to the Arctic Council members, apart from Russia, there are a number of other bodies. There are security meetings that have taken place. There are defence conversations in various configurations, bilaterally, trilaterally and, obviously, working closely with Norway as they assume the role of chair going into next year.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I have 10 seconds left, which I will take to thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I want to thank our witnesses as well.

Ms. Thomas, could I just ask you to provide a written response back to committee? One thing I'm very concerned about, as a member of this committee, is that we're going to be spending tens of billions of dollars in upgrading our north warning systems, satellites, NORAD modernization, signals and communications. There was the story about what happened to the RCMP procurement and Hytera being investigated for espionage in the States. We went through the Huawei debacle and everything, surrounded with our Five Eyes partners.

Perhaps you can get back to us on what procurement changes are going to happen to ensure that we're not going to be caught in this situation again, where Chinese state-controlled enterprises are interfering in our procurement processes. Thank you very much.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, it would have been appropriate for the Conservatives to ask that question during their time. If you seek a written response on a question that was never asked in the allotted time, then we should be able to put forward questions. I would love to have a written report on the Conservative inaction on foreign interference from—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

That's not a point of order. You're now into debate. I'm going to move on.

We do have our officials from the Office of the Auditor General waiting to come up next—