National Defence Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Jody Thomas]

It's not dangerous.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

One diplomatic approach says it's always better to have a country across the table from you when it doesn't necessarily move in the direction you want, because those are the only ties that remain.

Wouldn't it be better if we were at the table?

[Jody Thomas]

That is certainly a school of thought. That was seen at the G20, where Russia had representatives at the leaders table. They didn't necessarily like what they were hearing and left. Each situation has to be judged on its merits. In this particular case, I agree with the decision to hold the meetings in advance, because Russia was the chair.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You said earlier that Russia continues to invest in the Arctic. Given the geopolitical context, why do you think it's doing that?

[Jody Thomas]

The Arctic is an enormous element of the Canadian land and our geopolitical structures. The Arctic is critical for the defence of North America through NORAD. There's a responsibility to Arctic peoples to invest in infrastructure for them and with them. Certainly, not without them. We have enormous riches in the Arctic that we need to protect. That is the most important reason.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'm sorry. That's your time. The two and a half minutes fly right by.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Last May, Minister Anand announced that Canada was going to take a comprehensive look at joining the U.S. ballistic missile defence system. Why was that conversation reopened? How has that conversation continued, or has it ended?

[Jody Thomas]

Within the Department of National Defence, certainly, the officials are having the discussion. We'll see it continue as the defence policy review or update comes forward.

What is important about BMD is that those three letters occupy a lot of discussion. In fact, we should be talking about missile defence and protection for Canada from all hazards that are coming at us. Ballistic missile defence is important, but there are many other threats, such as hypersonics, cruise missiles and weapons that can reach Canada's shore from a far distance, which is recent. It used to be that you would have to get a ship, submarine or a bomber close to Canada. These missiles can now be launched from overseas and reach North America.

We need to take broad view of what the missile threat is and what the North American response to that is going to be, as opposed to just focusing on BMD.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I was in a discussion with the former ambassador from the UN on disarmament, Paul Meyer. He said that ultimately it would be far easier for states and nations to purchase that kind of equipment with its allies rather than working on peace with its enemies.

In terms of those discussions, how often are those diplomatic discussions happening, and how often do you discuss disarmament agreements?

[Jody Thomas]

I don't participate in those discussions. That's done through Global Affairs Canada.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

I think that's it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're back to five minutes and the final two questions.

Mr. Kelly is next.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Just to begin, I want to correct the record on something that's been raised, not just at this committee but also in the House of Commons. It's this notion that Conservative interest in election interference is something brand new.

I understand that a quick control-F type of search on Open Parliament reveals that Conservatives have raised the issue of foreign election interference 12,806 times in the House of Commons between 2015 and—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

But you didn't do anything about it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

We're not the government.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Order.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That was between 2015 and 2022, including 3,659 times between the 2015 and 2019 elections. This is a topic that is of much concern. I made some of those interventions myself, so I know that this is something we've raised repeatedly. It's a real concern.

Ms. Thomas, you mentioned earlier on that, as recently as two weeks ago, you briefed the Prime Minister on foreign interference. When was the first time you briefed him on foreign interference?

[Jody Thomas]

I can't give you a date. I'd have to look at my records—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

[Jody Thomas]

—but foreign interference is a constant conversation. It's not just about elections. Foreign interference happens on a range of issues. We see foreign interference on misinformation and disinformation about what's going on in Ukraine.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You have suggested at this table that the media reports of 11 candidates being financed by Beijing.... You've characterized them as merely media reports. Are you suggesting that these reports are false?

[Jody Thomas]

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying I do not know. There was a blurring of what's been reported to the Prime Minister and what's been reported in the press. I am trying to differentiate them and I have not been briefed and have no awareness. I've asked the question of 11 candidates and the connection to the money that was in that report. I know nothing of that. I have seen no evidence of it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Are you concerned about it?

[Jody Thomas]

I am very concerned about it, which is why I've asked questions about it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. Do you think that likely, perhaps with the resources available to the Government of Canada, you could locate the sources that the media seem to have and find out if this is correct or not?