National Defence Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Well, I disagree with most of what you have said.

I'll start by saying that, with 48 recommendations put on the table, this is the first time any government has responded to a report with a complete and detailed response to each and every recommendation in terms of our path forward.

The fact that there's no timeline on a recommendation of the magnitude of recommendation 5 I think is prudent. Do you really want me to come here today and say that I will implement recommendation 5 by January 1, 2024 without hearing from my department about the process, the options and how we're going to ensure it occurs? That would not be prudent, and it may not even be true, so I need to make sure that the information that I am giving to this committee and the people of Canada is true and accurate.

What I am saying is that we are going to move forward on recommendation 5. I have asked my officials to present me with options, and just as I moved on the 17 recommendations immediately after accepting Madame Arbour's report on May 30, 2022, I will move on the options as soon as possible.

You mentioned the external monitor. The external monitor was appointed within months of our receiving the final report of Madame Arbour. Already I have met with her numerous times, and she is engaging with the department. She is also ensuring that she provides the oversight that Madame Arbour recommended in her report.

I don't agree that this time is similar. I strongly believe that this time is different, that with this leadership team and our respective approaches to addressing the need for cultural change at a pivotal time in the Canadian Armed Forces' history, you will continue not only to hear updates from us, but to see meaningful change that affects the lives of people within the Canadian Armed Forces and hopefully serves as an incentive for people to join the Canadian Armed Forces as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen. You have about half a minute. I'll try to find half a minute somewhere else.

We have 20 minutes. We might be able to stretch it to 25. If we make it four minutes each.... We'll start that.

Mr. Bezan, you have four minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

To Minister Anand and everyone from the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces, first of all, thank you for the response to the report. It's the first time we've seen this done. Your predecessor sat on the Deschamps report for seven years and let it collect dust on his desk, so this is a very positive step forward.

To follow up on my colleague Ms. Mathyssen's comments, we did just have Justice Arbour here, and she was critical of the response to recommendation 5. We know that, in this place, we can get legislation done fast, although Bill C-77, the victims bill of rights in the military, took seven years to finally get brought into force.

What's your timeline on getting this before us in an expedited manner? All parliamentarians want to see this moved from the military justice system to civilian courts. What's your timeline for changes to the National Defence Act and whether or not we need to make changes to the Criminal Code?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much.

As I said, I have directed DND/CAF to present options on how jurisdictional change can occur and to do so in consultation with the provinces, territories and other actors. As I mentioned in response to the previous question, it simply won't happen overnight because there are serious and substantive challenges that we have to work through, like collaboration with the provinces and territories and civilian police force capacity. We are committed to addressing these issues, and I'm happy to ask my deputy minister to add to my response.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Let me intercede first, because Justice Arbour was quite critical. She says that there shouldn't be any concerns here, that we have constitutional responsibility that already exists. Prior to 1998, this was already outside of the purview of military justice. She's saying to repeal the current legislation that empowered the military justice system to take over sexual offences that would fall under the Criminal Code and to return it back to the civilian courts, where they were prior to 1998.

The question is, why not just move forward with simple legislation to repeal those sections of the National Defence Act and allow the constitutional responsibility and jurisdiction of the civil courts to take over, as well as the police agencies, for that matter?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I understand, Mr. Chair, the urgent need to move forward as quickly as possible. I share that sense of urgency. I can assure you that this is my top priority at National Defence.

Madame Arbour herself said in the report that this is going to take several years to implement. She knows the magnitude of what is before us. I believe we are on the right path.

We are continuing to implement the interim recommendation. We are continuing to see take-up on the transfer of cases from the RCMP and from Quebec as well. They're doing a wonderful job there. In the meantime, my officials will come to present options.

As I said, it would be imprudent for me to simply provide a date to this committee and to Canadians without ensuring that the date can be complied with—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I don't have a lot of time, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 30 seconds.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You talk about referring cases to the civilian court, which we're currently doing on an interim basis. As of now, 97 military sexual assault cases, I understand, have been referred to the civilian system. National Defence rejected 40 of them. Why is that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

National Defence rejected 40 of them...?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's what I've been told: 40 cases that were requested to be transferred to civilian courts were rejected and are still within National Defence.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I think the civilian authorities rejected them. I think that's what you want to say, as opposed to National Defence.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If the civilian authorities rejected them, why would that be?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It's important to remember that we are moving as quickly as possible, from National Defence's standpoint, to implement the interim recommendation. We have stood up a federal, provincial and territorial committee in order to address some of the concerns we are hearing from the provinces.

As well, we will continue to move forward with Bill C-77, the declaration of victims' rights, which came into force earlier this year, to give rights to victims of service offences.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave the answer there.

With that, Ms. Vandenbeld, you have four minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you so much for being here today, and for your very evident, strong commitment to making real, transformative change. You're not just ending the toxic culture and the bad behaviour, but, as you said, in your words, really making it a place “where all members...can be respected and protected.”

I think this is the key. It goes well beyond sexual misconduct. To really make a difference, it has to be a place where women and other equity-seeking groups are not just accommodated but included, and all processes and the institution are transformed so that it is a welcoming environment where everyone can thrive, which I know you're very committed to. That includes not just justice; it includes sex- and gender-based analysis around women's health. It includes career trajectories, military families, child care, recruitment and all of the above.

My question is for you, but I would like to hear from General Eyre, General Allen and General Carignan on this as well, so I hope everyone will be very brief.

How do we go beyond changing the toxic masculinity culture and move toward a complete institutional change, so that every single person can find their place within CAF?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

I would like to start by saying that we can't have a “check the box” mentality when we are looking at reforming the culture of the Canadian Armed Forces. We need to make sure we're laying the foundation for meaningful and long-lasting change. That's my motivation every single day.

We don't know how long we'll be in our respective positions, but we know that the Canadian Armed Forces need to continue to serve this country and to protect and defend this country for years and years. How we ensure that change can occur is by putting in place the institutional reforms, some of which we've discussed here today.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I think this speaks to what's different this time. What is different this time is a different focus and approach. This one is more of a values-based approach, as opposed to a rules-based approach. We can rise up to our values, or we can sink down to the level of the rules. We need both, but we're putting much more focus on the values.

Part of those values includes inclusion. Earlier this year, we published the new CAF military ethos, “Trusted to Serve”. Inclusion is right up there as a military value. There's much more focus on character as opposed to competence. If we take a look at our strategic failures over the last number of generations, they have been character-based, not competence-based. That is super important.

Incentivizing inclusive behaviours at all levels, so that we can attract and retain the best talent that Canada and Canadian society have to offer, is absolutely essential as we face the darkening, ever more dangerous world around us and as you, the Government of Canada, call upon us more and more to respond. That is absolutely essential.

[Lieutenant-General Frances J. Allen, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

How do I follow that?

I think what needs to become endemic in the way we consider and deliberate, as we move forward, is engagement. This engagement, as Ms. Arbour mentioned earlier in her testimony, is beyond just among ourselves, internally. I'm thinking about the broader communities that have investment, equity, education and knowledge they can bring to our decision-making.

Thank you.

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her question.

The creation of my organization is also evidence that we intend to manage the culture consistently to make sure that conduct is always aligned with our values.

The approach we advocate for the position of Chief of Professional Conduct and Culture is to manage the culture from the bottom up, from the top down, and horizontally, while regularly holding external consultations, as Justice Arbour talked about earlier this morning.

We have put processes in place by which we consult externally on a regular basis and thus obtain advice that constantly breathes new ideas into our organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.

You have one minute, Ms. Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Minister, you say in your report that the function of the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre might change somewhat in order to offer more legal assistance services, which I welcome.

I am nonetheless concerned about the provision of services in French.

This summer, after the case was over, we learned that only 10% of claims were submitted by francophones, even though they represent 20% of the armed forces. There seem to have been problems with publicizing the services offered to francophones.

I would like to know what you are going to do to ensure that services are offered by the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre in both official languages.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for your question.

As you know, I am fond of the French language and I try very often to speak it.

We are fully committed to providing services in both official languages. As Minister of National Defence, and in my personal capacity, I consider that to be very important, because we are a bilingual country.

I would like to ask Ms. Rizzo-Michelin whether she has something to add.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I seem to be repetitive, here. Time is expired.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have one minute.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had the privilege of sitting on the status of women committee. Many women came before us throughout the study, last year, on what occurred. Repeatedly, they said they saw report after report.

I'm grateful for the change and willingness, in terms of the acceptance and the response to the report. However, it's not full implementation, entirely. There are all these different aspects to it. I can understand why, but there's a concern there. Ms. Arbour said today, in this committee, that she is fearful you have missed the boat.

What do you have to say about that?