National Defence Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will say that it's different this time. Never before has our government responded to a report from a Supreme Court Justice with a full-fledged explanation and road map forward for every single recommendation in the report. I will come back to this committee and the Canadian public, at least quarterly, with updates relating to our progress on implementation. The external monitor herself will also provide updates to the Canadian public.

The way we ensure that cultural change occurs in the military is by trying, every single day, to get it right. The gist of my tenure, as Minister of National Defence, is to ensure that occurs.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Kelly, you have four minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

On the same point, the track record of your government on this has been abysmal. The seven years that went by with no action on the Deschamps report have led to a certain amount of skepticism about the commitments you're making. Ms. Mathyssen is right. I note that Justice Arbour was skeptical about the willingness of your government to fully implement all these recommendations.

It's easy for a minister to say, “I accept all the recommendations.” Every few years, a minister is shuffled. Sometimes, there's a change of government. Nothing happens, and the problems remain. You're going to need to give us additional assurance. Consultations don't protect victims. Action will.

Can you address the shortcomings Ms. Arbour found in the level of commitment demonstrated in your remarks, particularly on recommendation 5?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Madame Arbour's recommendation 5—and the recommendations generally—recognized that full-fledged systemic cultural change is not going to occur overnight. She also recognized some of the issues you raised in your question, including the potential for the minister of the day to be moved out of the position. It is for that reason that she recommended that the external monitor be appointed. I moved extremely quickly to ensure that there was an external monitor appointed to oversee the implementation of the recommendations.

There is a built-in safety valve in the Arbour report recommendations, which we have already implemented. The external monitor is going to ensure that we are held to account.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Why not commit today to an expeditious legislative process to implement it? You said earlier in your remarks that it will take time to get the legislation right. Justice Arbour didn't seem to agree. She thought it was going to be relatively simple. Yes, culture change takes a long time, but minor changes to legislation, which is what's required here, do not take a lot of time if there is political will.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I would encourage you to read the Arbour report, and recommendation 5 in particular. What she said in that report is that it will take years to implement.

I agree with her written word in the report. In particular, I have heard from my officials who are with me today that the challenges to moving all cases from one justice system to another are significant. That includes ensuring that the provinces and territories will take these cases and ensuring that international issues and cases are able to be dealt with in terms of international law and resources required. There are challenges.

I would turn to my deputy minister to add anything to that.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a request. I would encourage you to listen to the testimony that Justice Arbour delivered earlier today.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I would have liked to, but I was not in the room at the time.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Well, she was quite clear that she has concern about political will.

All that this comes down to is political will, and your government has a terrible track record on this, based on the Deschamps report.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I would encourage you to look at the report that I tabled in Parliament today and to compare it to the response of previous reports that have been submitted. We have the will, and we will continue to get this done.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you. The proof will be in the action.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly. That was four minutes.

The final four minutes go to Mr. Fisher, please.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you to you and your team for being here today. I have said this before and I will say it again: You are a force to be reckoned with. I'm not one of the skeptics. I have known you long enough now to know that when you say you're going to get something done, you're going to get it done.

I also want to take a quick second to acknowledge the members of the committee today, who asked some really good, fair, strong and tough questions. This is one of those times when I really appreciate this committee; it comes well prepared. Today was a very good and respectful day.

One thing that members of this committee did was to take every question that I was going to ask you and ask it.

When you were speaking with Madame Lambropoulos, you offered up to this committee and to Parliament a road map in the future.

For the 17 of 48 recommendations that you announced you would begin immediately, can you give us a bit of an update, a road map, on where you are with those? It would be unfair to ask you about a road map of things you haven't been able to tackle yet. However, I thought maybe I would give you an opportunity, if I could, to see where you are on those 17 of the 48 that you said you would begin immediately.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Most definitely. I want to say, though, that the importance of the 17 recommendations was for us, in May 2022, to show that we will continue to act very quickly on a number of recommendations. That includes, for example, to undertake a review of the SMRC and to change the name of the SMRC, including to ensure that we examine the duty to report and a number of other recommendations.

I don't think at this juncture, when we said we are not rejecting any of the 48 recommendations, that we need to focus only on 17. Right now our focus is on the entire report, to make sure we are moving very quickly on every single recommendation.

Having already implemented recommendations 47 and 48, I will ask my deputy minister whether he could provide an update on the remainder.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of points here.

Number one, the examination of the various rules and regulations is ongoing. We've heard from the chief on a couple of these today.

The point I would like to flag to the committee is on Madame Arbour's 48 recommendations. They are part of a broader program of culture change. We haven't touched much on General Carignan's organization today, but that is what's also different this time. This organization is now well stood up and has a mandate to address the culture of the organization.

They're still fairly new from an organizational history perspective, but they are going to be critical, and their work is critical in moving forward these recommendations and the broader culture change work, including measures to address racism and inclusivity. It is part of a broader package, and I would like to flag for the committee that this work should not be ignored.

We're talking about Madame Arbour's report today. There's a broader program of work here as well that's equally important.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about a minute left, Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

With regard to the sexual misconduct response centre, can you update us on some of the changes that have already been made and maybe on some that are under way to better support complainants, victims and survivors?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Most definitely. We are moving forward on reviewing the mandate and client scope of the SMRC as a first step in implementing Madame Arbour's recommendation that the SMRC be reinforced as a primary resource centre solely for complainants, victims and survivors of sexual misconduct.

I think it's really important to remember what the deputy minister just mentioned, which is that we're not starting from scratch with the Arbour report. A number of initiatives have been under way for years in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the SMRC programs, including independent legal assistance, including access to SMRC services and including initiatives to improve the grievance process. We are building on a foundation of transformative change.

In terms of the SMRC, which is the gist of your question, we're working to transfer the SMRC's authority for sexual misconduct training and education to Madame Carignan's centre, the CPCC, and we are also making sure that structure reports directly to the deputy minister of National Defence. The SMRC is also in the process of implementing a review of its own administrative structure in order to increase its independence.

There are a number of reforms around the SMRC, but I want to make sure you know that there is a foundation of transformative change that has already been under way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

That brings our time with the minister and her officials to a close.

I have taken note, Minister, of your willingness to reappear before the committee. As chair of this committee, I have to say that the gap between your last appearance and now has been a little bit too long, and we're hoping to rectify that with more frequent appearances by you and your colleagues. There are a number of studies this committee is engaged in on which your input would be required and welcome. I would encourage those who control your calendar to clear a bit more space for the committee so that we are not left in a vacuum as to what your thinking might be.

With that, I want to thank you. This has been an extraordinary two hours sitting here in this chair listening to the commitment to substantial change of some of the most significant and influential people in this country, and we cannot afford to fail. I take General Eyre's comments to heart: It is just too dangerous for us to fail. So I'm pleased to see the commitment.

With that, we are going to adjourn.

Colleagues, I don't know what's happening Thursday. According to Mr. Bezan, we won't be here. If we are here, I intend to have a meeting and instruct the analysts on the Arctic study and also to hear your thinking with respect to our trip to the Baltics and Poland. We need to start working on that now so as to maximize the benefit of the trip and to help out. We'll see what Thursday brings.

With that, the meeting is adjourned.