National Defence Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, officials, thank you all for being here.

I want to start off, and we talked about this in previous meetings as well, by noting that because it was a U.S. fighter jet that actually shot down or took the shot, there was an insinuation that Canada did not have the capability. Now we have heard testimony that this was not the case, and that there was a decision made on who might be best or why a particular aircraft was sought.

Could we just get some further clarification on how that NORAD process works in determining capabilities?

Is Canada capable, in the event that another balloon or object of this nature were to enter Canadian airspace and the decision were made for Canada to shoot it down?

Could you maybe walk us through that process?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Definitely.

First of all, NORAD has a binational structure, which means it is equally responsible to and made up of personnel from the United States and Canada. In fact, it's the world's only binational command structure. It employs a layered defence network of satellites, ground-based radars, airborne radar and fighter aircraft to track and identify aircraft and inform appropriate actions.

In Yukon, for example, NORAD detected the object and launched Canadian and U.S. fighter aircraft to investigate. At the direction of the Prime Minister, as I mentioned, the decision was made to take down the object. This was the first time NORAD had ever downed an aerial object in Canada.

We recognize the need to continue to improve in this area in terms of decision-making. That's why we're putting on the table almost $40 billion to modernize NORAD and continental defence. Going forward, NORAD will continue to exercise its mission exactly as it has done in the past. If an unknown object enters U.S. or Canadian airspace, it will be assessed; it will be identified as to whether it's a threat. If it's not a kinetic military threat, further discussion across government will occur to determine whether it poses a risk to national security, safety of flight, or people on the ground.

I will say that there are additional actions that we are going to be taking. NORAD will continue to have battle rhythm drills, but it will refine these battle rhythm drills to include streamlining the reporting of unidentified objects to improve timely communication on such objects. There will be further efficiencies—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I'm sorry, Minister—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—in reporting and inter-agency cooperation.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't want to interrupt, Minister, but I am limited on time.

I just wanted to also ask a question in regard to reporting. I know there are different instances, but with the first balloon we heard testimony about scaffolding inside, and clearly it seemed to be fairly significant. That's where my questions are leaning.

I want to understand if this is true or if it affected CAF in any way. We heard reporting that it could interrupt aircraft and signalling. I'm just curious as to whether that was a commercial issue or if there were actually interruptions to military capabilities? In addition to that, how will we ensure that we'd be ready and capable in the event that another object like this were to fly into Canadian airspace, and that it wouldn't interrupt military capabilities?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm going to ask the chief of the defence staff to take the first question, but before I do, I'm just going to answer the second question.

It's essentially a continuation of what I was saying in terms of further making sure our processes are efficient and effective at a NORAD level. We'll continue to assess threats—kinetic threats, etc.—and identify those threats. We're undertaking drills that are focused on streamlining the reporting of any unidentified objects. We're making sure we have a very succinct reporting structure so that we can communicate effectively among decision-makers. We're also making sure we're coordinating across geographic regions.

I'm going to now ask the chief of the defence staff if he has anything to add, especially on the first part.

[General Wayne D. Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

On the first part, any electromagnetic emissions are currently part of the exploitation and analysis that are ongoing, along with the debris that was recovered. The public sharing of that will depend upon the intelligence value that it has in terms of keeping it versus letting the adversaries know what success they had.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Have we been concerned in the past...? I recognize you said that to our knowledge they have not flown in Canadian airspace. Have any of our allies raised issues or concerns that balloons of this nature have been floating into various airspaces around the world?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Can I just take you to the specific objectives of NORAD, the raison d'être of NORAD, which is to surveil the skies, monitor and control? That's what NORAD has done for 65 years. It is constantly monitoring the skies for any of these types of objects. It just so happened that in the month of February there were four.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also thank Madam Minister and all the witnesses for their presence. In addition, on behalf of my colleagues and I, I would like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are participating in the debris search operation.

Major-General Prévost mentioned that, at one point, the search and scanning criteria were changed—they were talking about a filter, or a door—which allowed the first balloon to be found and then, quite quickly, other objects.

Was it because of information that there could possibly be balloons in the air that the search criteria were changed, or was it because the criteria were changed that the balloons were discovered by chance?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I said earlier, NORAD's objective is to continue to monitor the airspace. There are many methods used to achieve this objective and there are many factors to consider when a balloon or presumed balloon is discovered.

I will turn the floor over to the Chief of the Defence Staff.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

After the first incident, radar operators updated their situational awareness and changed the level of search for objects by focusing more on smaller objects.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If I understood correctly, it was the discovery of the first balloon that led to changes in criteria.

What led to the discovery of the first balloon?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Because the first balloon was so big, it was easier to spot.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, General Eyre.

Madam Minister, communication also falls under the government's purview. Now, it seems to me that there was a bit of confusion as to how the message about the presence of the balloons was conveyed, which led to a number of rather far-fetched assumptions on the part of the population.

Are you reviewing the communication plans regarding other possible events? How can we align these plans with those of our American partners? We want to ensure that the public understands, and we want to send good messages about how these events will be managed from now on.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

After each operation, we take stock of the situation to see how we can improve the process. This is what we did with regard to the event we are talking about today.

We believe that we need to do everything we can to convey the details of the situation, whether it's to the people on the ground or in the airspace.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

People have been watching Canada's response on the ground, and our communications.

One hypothesis is that China used this kind of balloon to study the reaction of Canada, the U.S. and NORAD and to discover flaws in our system. How plausible is this hypothesis?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am not in the business of hypothesizing prior to having data.

The reality is that we don't have the data from the downed balloon off the coast of the United States, and we don't have data from the other three incidents.

At this point, it would be imprudent for me to speculate on the purpose and the origins of those other three balloons.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

The origin of the other three balloons is uncertain, but from what we have heard it is possible that they are of civilian origin.

What measures have been put in place to ensure that if civilian balloons are spotted by NORAD in the future, it does not trigger the same kind of situation or panic among the public?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That is a good question and you are right. These are things that I think about too. Of course, it is very important to bolster the population's confidence. On the other hand, the purpose of NORAD is to monitor our airspace.

We are very proud of this process. Of course, we can improve it, and that's what we're doing now. We are thinking about what we can do in the future to communicate better.

General Eyre, do you have anything to add?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

I want to reiterate that the Department of Transport is responsible for overseeing our airspace and establishing the laws and policies necessary to control and monitor civilian objects and aircraft.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Madam Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.