National Defence Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order.

A number of us, including the minister and General Eyre, were at the Sam Sharpe Breakfast this morning. It was a deeply moving event. I just thought I'd give the minister a minute or two to reflect on that event, and then we'll launch into your five minutes of presentations.

Minister, you have a word or two.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Committee on National Defence, I am very pleased to be here with you today.

To begin with the Sam Sharpe Breakfast this morning, this was my second year in attendance as Minister of National Defence. It was the tenth anniversary of the Sam Sharpe Breakfast. Erin O'Toole and Roméo Dallaire need to be thanked, not only for their service to our country, but also for memorializing the legacy of Sam Sharpe and his service to Canada during the First World War.

In particular, Sam Sharpe did incredible work on the battlefield in leading his troops, including at Passchendaele, but when he returned home to Montreal he committed suicide, a fact speaks volumes to the work that we need to continue to do to address mental health issues and concerns.

As MP Erin O'Toole explained this morning, Sam Sharpe's legacy was really hidden for a very long time until a bust was erected and this breakfast was started.

With regard to my own personal reflections, I kind of go back to when I was young when discussions about mental health and the study of mental health were not on the agenda, either in school or in our activities, or even at home around the dinner table. In fact, mental health, I believe, probably was addressed by your parents telling you to go outside and play or do some sports or something like that.

In other words, we have come a long way in the Canadian Armed Forces in ensuring that there are supports available 24-7 to those who need supports via a hotline or other organizations. We work closely with Veterans Affairs Canada for the establishment and perpetuation of these supports.

I don't for a moment want to give the impression that we're resting on these programs as though they were sufficient. I think that we need to keep ensuring that every member of our armed forces is protected and respected when they put on a uniform in service of this country, and part of that includes ensuring that mental health issues are addressed and can be addressed by the members themselves, should they choose to seek assistance.

I'll just say that more work needs to be done, but it's a very meaningful moment for all of us around the table. As I said this morning, one of the most impactful things about the Sam Sharpe Breakfast is that we leave politics at the door, and all of us in the room pull in the same direction for the safety and security of families, troops and veterans, as well as specifically stressing the importance of their mental health.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for giving me an opportunity to express my feelings.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

We now look forward to your five-minute statement.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I said that I'm pleased to join you today. In particular, I understand that we're going to be receiving questions on the main estimates for DND, the armed forces and the Communications Security Establishment.

To be clear, we are at a pivotal moment in our institutions. Across the globe, we have seen authoritarianism take hold and emerge with a new vigour.

Let's take a look at Russia, where we are continuing to see its full-scale brutal and unjustifiable invasion of Ukraine, a people who want nothing more than to live in peace and security.

China is also a disruptive regional and global power, increasingly disregarding international rules and norms, including in the Asia-Pacific vis-à-vis our RCAF pilots and crews.

In this changing world, we must double down on our efforts to protect our country and its people, while continuing to support our allies and partners. The $26.5 billion we are requesting for the Department of National Defence, DND, and the Canadian Armed Forces, CAF—including $1.7 billion in statutory authorities—will allow us to sustain our current operations, while putting us on track to meet our international obligations for years to come.

Breaking these down in terms of the total funding requested for National Defence, almost $18 billion is allocated to our operating expenditures.

As I said, this funding sustains day-to-day operations, including supporting our people, ensuring their operational readiness, and keeping our equipment and facilities in good shape.

Similarly, the entirety of the requested funding for the Communications Security Establishment, or CSE, is for program expenditures, which include day-to-day operating expenses along with smaller capital investments.

The remaining funding for DND includes $319.8 million in grants and contributions, transfer payments to other orders of government, international organizations, individuals and third parties.

There's $46.7 million towards the long-term disability and life insurance plan for forces members, and almost $6.1 billion in capital expenditures, those being longer-term investments in our military’s capabilities.

Throughout this estimates process, we're providing funding for several specific initiatives. You have heard me, in fact, discuss these a number of times at committee. They are the NORAD modernization plan, the North Warning System, the IM/IT modernization program, Canadian Forces health care, and culture change in the Canadian Armed Forces.

This is a broad range of investments, Mr. Chair. That is why you are seeing the amount of requests in the main estimates, and that is why you will continue to see us work to help protect our country during an era of uncertainty and instability. We do recognize that we need to keep moving forward. We need to do this quickly, but we also need to be deliberate and systematic about it.

In terms of our defence policy, you know that the governing policy is “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. The expenditures we are putting forward are under our defence policy put forward in 2017. At the same time, we are undertaking a defence policy update, and we are making sure we are taking into account the new and emerging threat environment in the area of cyber, and emerging global conflicts, including in Ukraine.

Throughout our defence policy expenditures under “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, you are seeing our defence expenditures increased by 70% over the nine-year period beginning in 2017. We recognize that we have more work to do, but I want to be clear that our defence spending is on an upward trajectory.

In the meantime, the funding requests I'm putting forward today will enable us to deliver on our critical commitments. They will allow us to sustain our military as we begin to chart a course forward in the short, medium and long-term with the defence policy update.

I so look forward to discussing these plans with you here today.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

We have Mr. Bezan for six minutes, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister Anand, for being with us. General Eyre and everyone at the end of the table, thanks for joining us.

I appreciate the comments about the Sam Sharpe Breakfast. It was very well attended. It's one of the best ones I've been at over the last decade.

I, too, want to extend my thanks to retired senator, Lieutenant-General Roméo Dallaire, as well as my soon to retire colleague, the Hon. Erin O'Toole, a retired captain of the air force. I want to thank them for their work, and I'm looking forward to seeing it being handed off to two of our colleagues, retired Admiral Rebecca Patterson, who is now a senator, as well as our colleague in the House of Commons, Alex Ruff, a retired colonel. I know they will continue with the great tradition of monitoring our military and those in service and their families, as well as all of our first responders and police officers out there who are suffering with mental health and operational stress injuries.

Minister, I want to start with the crisis in Sudan. As was reported yesterday in the newspaper, your Liberal government seems to have a habit, when it came to Afghanistan and now in Sudan, to be the last ones in and the first ones out. Prof. Christian Leuprecht said that we simply don't have the capacity, we don't have people, or we don't have the political will. Which is it?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the comments from my honourable colleague, Mr. Chair.

I don't agree with the comments that were made in that regard. In fact, we put six flights into the Wadi Seidna airport and we removed 550 people. We also ensured the evacuation of our diplomats in coordination with our allies, so—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There are still 230 Canadians left behind that we need to get as well. If we had started earlier, we may have been able to get them before things degraded even worse.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The clarification there is that there are approximately 200 Canadians still asking for help. That is being quickly and expeditiously monitored by Global Affairs Canada, and there are still a number of options for exiting the country through Port Sudan, as we do know that commercial flights are still leaving from there. We have two ships in the harbour, and we also have Canadian Armed Forces and Global Affairs Canada in the region.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

I've only got six minutes. I want to switch gears a bit and get back to the estimates.

Last year, you said on TV that you were going to “personally” bring “forward aggressive options” that would see Canada “potentially, exceed...the two per cent level, hitting the two per cent level” or come in “below the two per cent level”.

Based upon NATO numbers, this year we're sliding from 1.34% of GDP down to 1.29%. In your last expenditures, if I look at lapsed spending, you would make even your predecessor blush, in that you lapsed $2.5 billion in military spending.

How did that happen? I thought you were committed to getting us to the 2%. Is it because Prime Minister Trudeau has told our allies that we'll never get there?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

There are many parts to this question, so let me start with defence spending itself.

I already indicated how we are increasing our defence spending by 70% under “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. In addition, we committed $8 billion under budget 2022 and, in addition to that, we have committed almost $40 billion for NORAD modernization and continental defence.

My point is that our defence spending is on an incline, and that is unlike the Conservatives, who let defence spending fall below 1% while they were in power.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'm sorry, but I just want to remind the minister that when we were government, we had the Afghanistan wrap-up, so there wasn't the cash outflow after we came home. Secondly, we did get all the kit bought that we needed: new C-17s, new Hercules, new Leopard tanks and new Chinook helicopters. We got stuff done. We didn't commit to the 2% until 2014, and we had a 10-year plan to get to 10%.

Now, you're seeing spending lapse under your watch by $2.5 billion. You can go out there and make a bunch of promises, but if you don't deliver...and that's what last year was about—not delivering. How are we ever going to get to our NATO standard of 2% when you're allowing a $2.5-billion lapse in one year?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I beg to differ in terms of not providing results. We have Arctic offshore patrol ships, for example, in the water, one of which has circumnavigated the North American continent, and we have signed—unlike the previous government—a contract for the provision of 88 F-35s for the RCAF.

To get to the point about lapsed funding—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I do thank you for buying them after the Prime Minister said he'd never buy them: I think it was actually a very good purchase.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. I suspect that point of order is to let the minister answer the question—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

—and I think that's a fair point of order.

Let me give you a minute and 15 seconds to answer the questions.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

On lapsed funding, I agree: We need to spend allocated funding and we need to get projects out the door.

I believe strongly in the fact that with the allocated funding, under the envelopes that I have already identified in my response, our department needs to continue to put their shoulders to the wheel in terms of procurement and make sure that we are delivering on the items that have been contemplated already in Strong, Secure, Engaged and in NORAD modernization, and that's what we are working very hard to do.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, the Pentagon papers that were released on the Discord app said that the Prime Minister told NATO that we'd never hit the NATO target of 2%. This has strained our relationship with our allies, particularly in NATO and in the United States.

Can you comment on how that is impacting upon your ability to do your job as the Canadian Minister of National Defence at the NATO table?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Comment very briefly, please.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Our commitment to NATO has been strong as a founding member and will continue to be strong. We are recognized as a leading country in NATO and in terms of aid to Ukraine by the secretary general, as well as the defence minister of Ukraine and President Zelenskyy himself.

In terms of NATO and our allies, we meet monthly around the table of the defense contact group. That's NATO countries and at least 20 more countries. The feeling in the room is unified and one relating to collective action for Ukraine and for European security—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—so the alliance is strong and Canada's contribution is also strong.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Sousa, six minutes.