National Defence Committee on May 12th, 2023

[Gregory Lick]

In some aspects, yes.

The Canadian Armed Forces are working very hard to ensure that family members.... As they are required to support a member going through a crisis.... That's done through various people and staff within the military family resource centres. Spouses or partners are also encouraged to attend different mental health sessions with the members.

Elements of that particular recommendation are being pursued, absolutely.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Schippers, in 2021 you said that “adolescent military dependants...are far more likely to have admissions for injury, suicide attempts and mental health diagnoses than non-military teens.”

Has there been progress in reducing those numbers through access to supports in mental health in the last two years, since that statement was made?

[Gregory Lick]

Yes, and I think, as I referred.... The military family resource centres are the avenues, in many ways, to accessing some of those supports. Many of the MFRCs are putting in place various supports—whether that's a teen counsellor or various activities for teens—to try to help support them through the mental health issues they may experience as a result of being a military family member.

Does more need to be done? Absolutely, and this is where I come back to.... I strongly believe that military family resource centres need greater funding to be able to support military families better.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

I'll let Mr. Schippers, since it was his observation, comment on the progress, or where we are since that observation was made.

[Duane Schippers]

Those stats are from independent research. I don't have an updated statistic on that.

I would say that VAC has expanded. It has coloured a bit outside the lines in terms of expanding its mental health program to include more family members in terms of the kids, but there are limited sessions for those. I think one of the key things is that military life leads to a lot of separation and divorce, so you have a lot of families that are split.

It's all connected to the veteran right now, so it's about getting those services in the family member's own right. The child of a divorced veteran may have a very difficult time accessing mental health care in their own right, and they're at the most vulnerable level. They don't have the financial means to access these things, unlike someone who's employed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly. You had four seconds left.

Mr. Zuberi, welcome to the committee.

You have four minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I liked what you said, Colonel Jardine: that once you go through basic you are forever impacted and touched.

To share this with the witnesses, I myself was a reservist for five years, between 1997 and 2002—quite a while ago. The time I spent in the reserves continues to impact me and influence me today. For example, each and every morning, I iron my shirt, and I think of the time I spent ironing shirts in basic and infantry, trying to make sure every wrinkle was removed and starching them, etc. To this day, I'm still jogging from point A to point B, and I did so to get to this meeting this morning.

That being said, on the fact that people are forever impacted by their time in the military, I think the work you're doing is excellent.

I want to pick up on a line of questioning that we had earlier. I think the stats are really interesting. We've all commented on the stats that were coming out in terms of how, when it comes to suicide, for women in the military it's two to three times higher than for their male counterparts who have served, and that when it comes to men, it's 40% higher for men than the average within the population. Other stats like that are really important.

That evidence came out because of an acknowledgement that the military historically and traditionally has been a male-dominated institution. Also, the culture of the military is one in which you are basically working in a really serious job, which is to enter combat, essentially. That's what the military is about. It's a high-pressure environment, and rightly so, but you also need to take care of your employees and ensure that people are well taken care of.

My question on the stats is, how do you close the gap between what was mentioned—what we're hearing—and where we want to go in terms of the differences? We've identified some problems, and we know where we want to go. How do you close that gap? How have you been closing that gap?

[Gregory Lick]

Well, to be honest, I think the answer—

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

In my—

[Gregory Lick]

Go ahead, Nishika.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

In my role as the veterans ombud, I can only observe and offer recommendations to the minister. The gap that exists, or the impact on women as opposed to men or other equity-seeking groups with service in the Canadian Forces, is real, and we see it. We see the impacts of that. What my office has been calling for is more research into the “why”. We don't know why. Without the why, we can't address the root causes.

It's a joint effort between the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada, I believe. I've been calling for research, and I believe that is the key piece that is necessary to do now, so that we understand why these things are happening. Then things can be put in place to correct those, so that when you serve, you don't necessarily come out at the other end with illness or injuries simply because the equipment doesn't fit you or for various other reasons.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Normandin, in a minute and a half, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

So, I'll come back to my question.

Colonel Jardine, you said that soldiers who leave the Forces for medical reasons have good medical follow-up afterwards, whereas veterans who leave the Forces of their own will have to find resources.

Regarding mental health, I was wondering if there are soldiers who leave of their own free will, but would have received a diagnosis and been released for medical reasons.

Does that happen sometimes?

My question is for both witnesses.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I will answer in English, please. Excuse me, but it is harder through video.

I am not certain that mental health.... VAC has put in place a program whereby now, if you put in a disability claim for a mental health condition—not all mental health but some—you're eligible for treatment right away. When I am out there meeting with veterans, I encourage people to submit disability claims if they feel they need to.

I'm asking the government, actually, to go a step further and provide treatment on receiving a disability claim for all conditions, not just mental health.

Maybe I'll leave it there and allow time for Mr. Lick.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Mr. Lick doesn't have any time.

You have a minute and a half, Madam Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have another question for both of you. I'm just trying to get some clarity.

Yesterday, Minister Anand announced the launch of the independent legal assistance program, offering some legal funding for survivors through the sexual misconduct support and resource centre. If survivors have a dispute around eligibility for the legal assistance fund, do we know which of your offices they would actually turn to?

[Gregory Lick]

We generally don't deal directly with legal matters like that, in essence, but I believe both the OVO's and my job is to make sure we refer the people to the right place to get that support in this particular case.

As a result of the announcement, our intake team will have the information necessary, so that if people call us, we will refer them to the right place, as we already do for many of those types of things.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I have exactly the same answer.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, thank you.

My last question, very quickly, is around the harm to serving military family members. You said that it is a concern for national security. I'm wondering if you could explain what you mean by that.

[Gregory Lick]

It's quite simple for me. Military families are, as we've always said, the backbone of the military member. They provide the support. They provide the support during a deployment. They take care of the dependants while the member is serving, maybe deployed overseas.

It's much easier, as you will know, if your family is well taken care of. You can do your work. If the military member is always having to worry about what's happening back home.... Are their children being taken care of? Do they have the child care necessary? Do they have the medication? Do they have a doctor they can access to get the support they need? If they are continually worrying about that, they are not able to concentrate on their job, which is taking care of us around this table.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Blaney.

Mr. Bezan, you have four minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both offices for the incredible work they do on behalf of those who are serving and those who have served, holding up their values and standing up for their rights and the sacrifices they made for Canada.

I'm struggling with one thing you said, Mr. Lick. You talked about this being a process problem, not a people problem, yet you said that there's an ethical issue with the defence medical team attributing what benefits they have for injury from service. It's ethical for the defence medical team to determine that injury. It's ethical for the defence medical team to say that you don't meet the universality of services. It's ethical for the defence medical team to say that you're going to be discharged and will be leaving the service and transfer you over to VAC. Then how the hell is it not ethical to also say that injury gets this benefit from Veterans Affairs Canada? Where is the process problem?

[Gregory Lick]

That's exactly the question I'm asking.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Then it comes down to Colonel Jardine, then. What is happening at VAC that they will not accept that, or is it CAF pushing back because they don't want to take on that responsibility?

[Gregory Lick]

In the original instance, when we made that recommendation, it definitely was our department, National Defence, and the CAF pushing back on that particular issue. The explanation given to me was that this was an ethical issue of a treating doctor at the same time saying, for insurance reasons or benefit reasons, that your injury is due to service.

I think that's just a poor reason in this regard.