National Defence Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Is a cultural change happening now as a result? You cited some of the women's issues. We're very concerned about what's happening to women veterans. Is that changing? Are you seeing a more positive outcome now or an improvement?

[Matthew McDaniel]

I'm seeing an improvement. I think we're just getting started. As I say, society has to acknowledge something exists before we can take care of it, and we are now acknowledging that some of these challenges exist. Meetings like this are a sign that we're looking to take care of them.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's it for me, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Sousa.

Mr. Desilets, you have five minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. McDaniel, on the subject of mental health, when members have had psychological care for 10 or 15 years and they move from military to civilian life, can they keep seeing the same psychologist?

[Matthew McDaniel]

Not in all cases.... Often a psychologist is employed or contracted specifically by either the Canadian Forces, Veterans Affairs or privately. There are opportunities in which people are able to continue. I have a private practice as well with a number of clients I see transition from the service to after service. This is not the case for all members.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I was a little surprised and taken aback by the figures you mentioned earlier, when you said that 25% to 38% of transition cases experienced difficulties.

What do you think makes it even more difficult for woman veterans to experience a healthy or serene transition?

[Matthew McDaniel]

Women represent the minority in the military. I was just, as you were talking, trying to look up the figure so that I could cite here the percentage of women versus other genders in the military, but they're in the minority. Minority populations face additional challenges. They have less social support. They have less normalization of their experiences. Also, we have found that military sexual trauma especially affects women. That is an added and very complicated and detrimental barrier to their transition and their lives.

Actually, to tag on to that, because I mentioned sanctuary trauma, women are hoping that the military and the people in authority over them are safe. They go in with that belief. When that belief is shattered, that's an additional thing that needs to be addressed as they transition, if they're going to do so, in the most successful way.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Do you think trauma is adequately documented in the system, particularly sexual trauma suffered by women veterans?

[Matthew McDaniel]

I think the system is making great improvements in documenting this sufficiently.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So it’s not adequately documented, but things are improving.

Why do we find it hard to perceive the distinctive aspects of women veterans? They’ve been in combat for 40 years. That’s a known fact.

[Matthew McDaniel]

I know that I continue to repeat this point, but mental health challenges and personal struggles cannot be addressed unless society acknowledges they exist. Our society has made great strides in acknowledging the challenges of minority populations and of women in the past years, and this cultural shift is affecting institutions like the armed forces. I believe that is increasing our ability to acknowledge these things.

In the past, society writ large, including society's institutions like the armed forces, has silenced behaviour of this kind and people talking about behaviour of this kind. I'm very glad that this is changing now.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That’s interesting. You seem very optimistic to me, and that’s a good thing.

On another note, I’d like to know who funds your organization.

[Matthew McDaniel]

Our organization has a combination of funding through Veterans Affairs and private donors. It's a tapestry of different funders supporting us.

I'm very happy that we are able to have that funding. I think it's really important that our programs are free for the people who use them.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you have the necessary funding to meet demand and fulfill your mandate?

[Matthew McDaniel]

This is a question of how much we can do. The more funding we receive, the more we are able to do. To date, we are serving 160 veterans per year through our programs. The more funding we're able to attain, the more we can do.

In addition, we recently received funding from a private donor to begin a couples transition program. I've mentioned that these challenges don't just affect the individual. They affect the couple. They affect the community and society writ large. That funding is allowing us to expand what we do to not just address the challenges within one person, but to also address the challenges they experience with the people in their lives. Often, the spouse of a veteran who has transitioned is doing a lot of heavy lifting in helping them transition as well. I'm very glad that additional funding is allowing us to address that challenge as well.

As we continue to grow, we're hoping to expand our programming.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Monsieur Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. McDaniel, thank you for your clear and concise answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen, you have five minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

Mr. McDaniel, I referenced in the previous panel an opinion piece that was presented by health clinicians from Renfrew County who are trying to provide services to Veterans Affairs Canada. One of the quotes from their article said, “The ability to care for psychologically injured veterans is a skill set that requires particular training and education, and years of experience.” They were talking about it in reference to that farming out and privatization of a lot of these services. Of course, we've heard that from a lot of the caseworkers who work within Veterans Affairs.

You spoke about that sanctuary trauma and the consistency that's required for those with that special skill set to be able to address that and handle it over time. Can you talk about the fact that, if we're going to work within that consistency, then we're going to have someone who's able to delve into those cases to have consistency for a veteran who's dealing with a lot of psychological trauma? How does that all work together, and what's the importance of trusting someone consistently and not have it farmed out in these ways to a company like Loblaw?

[Matthew McDaniel]

One of the themes that I'm attempting to get across here is that these are not individual concerns and that these are connected. We are connected. Part of that connection involves that transition does need consistency, as you're talking about, or would benefit from consistency.

I can't speak to the challenges of.... Well, I can speak. I'm more explicitly going to say that, whether support services for veterans are in-house, a public service or privatized, it has to be consistent so that they can rebuild trust—as you're talking about. Even if it is privatized, that has to be woven into the fabric of public services. It can't be an independent entity. All of us need to be working together.

I'm encouraged that you have a number of different support people on this panel right now. We all need to be working together. The other members of the panel and I need to be working together on this, whether we're private or public.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's interesting that you had talked about sanctuary trauma. I hadn't heard that term before. I'm hoping that makes it into this report as something that has further funding or a specific focus on it.

I've often heard that a lot of the trauma that veterans have is generational. They had a family member who served, the trauma was carried into that family, and the children who then serve are looking for that same sanctuary. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Also, you spoke about women looking for that sanctuary more so, trusting in an institution that then doesn't represent them as a minority. Can you talk about and expand on how that would impact people who are gay or from the LGBTQI2S community? How would that impact them? Are there studies or numbers that we could use that you could bring forward?

[Matthew McDaniel]

You've brought up two different things here. The first has to do with intergenerational trauma, and the second has to do with minority populations.

To speak to intergenerational trauma, one of the largest correlates with mental health challenges and the development of PTSD is that, rather than a person experiencing something stressful or traumatic and having it convert into PTSD, it has to do with a history of traumatic incidents in their lives. The more traumatic incidents you experience through your childhood and into adulthood, the more likely it is that you will develop PTSD. That rolls forward too. If we don't manage to address those concerns, they can then be passed forward as that person who is facing some mental health challenges passes a bit of that onto their kids.

My second point to that is that most of the people in the professions that I work with—first responders, frontline workers, veterans—do this because it's deeply meaningful to them. They see this as service. They have found a way to give back to society and make their lives make sense from a service perspective. Because of that, they feel like they have found a family, and a group that accepts them and is on the same mission they are on regarding this existential need to serve. When that falls apart, when the institution falls apart, they also lose their sense of purpose in life. That's damaged as well.

Both of these concerns of intergenerational trauma and a loss of direction and meaning in life can be addressed with preventative care if we get to these folks right away and keep this from going forward. I'm suggesting that our transition services aren't just affecting that 25% to 30% of people who have trouble with transitioning. This is preventing, perhaps, future generations from having these same challenges. We need to take that very seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Dr. McDaniel. We'll have to leave it there.

We have fifteen minutes and 25 minutes of questions. This isn't going to work.

You have four minutes each, starting with either Mrs. Gallant or Mrs. Kramp-Neuman.

Ms. Kramp-Neuman, you have four minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Bennett, thank you for being here.

My first question is this: For many, religion can play a very important source of morale for our Canadian Armed Forces who are being faced with combat. At this time, is the Department of National Defence doing enough to provide support and resources to the CAF?