National Defence Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I think, again, I would really hold up the work of the chaplaincy service, but that chaplaincy service needs to be broadened. It needs to reflect the greater religious diversity in the country. I would certainly favour the expansion of that chaplaincy service to reflect different beliefs and different religious traditions.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Do you believe that the current resources we possess are at risk of being eroded or cut in the name of secularism?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I don't know if it's in the name of secularism. It's in the name of something. I think certainly some of the recommendations that have come forward recently, which I referenced in my remarks, are problematic, because they would effectively exclude from the chaplaincy service a large swath of religious traditions that maybe do not conform with particular views that are being advanced.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

In the past you've been interviewed stating that anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic views are all on the rise. How has this progressed since 2021, and how do you believe this has impacted CAF?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I can't comment necessarily on how it has impacted the Canadian Armed Forces, but certainly, in terms of society, StatsCan has demonstrated in its crime reporting survey that there have been increases in anti-religious hate crimes, particularly against Jews—anti-Semitism continues to be a major problem in the country—and certainly there's a significant increase in anti-Catholic hate crimes.

That obviously can trickle down into different parts of society, but I think it's very important that we recognize that religion is something that is deeply important to a significant number of Canadians, and certainly that would be to a significant number of members of the armed forces, who, as Dr. McDaniel mentioned, can often suffer grave moral injury. They're trying to make sense of what is true and what things mean, and they often need support to address those questions.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

In January of 2022, the Minister of National Defence's advisory panel on systemic racism and discrimination released its final report. In it they made four recommendations. A quick glance, though, at annex E—you may be familiar with it—of the report appears to show that the panel, comprised of four individuals, only met with two different organizations with a religious focus, that of the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs and the Royal Canadian Chaplain Service.

Do you believe the panel did their due diligence when taking a look at the question of reforming the CAF chaplaincy?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

No, they did not do their due diligence. I would recommend that they should have consulted more religious leaders, certainly a broader range of religious traditions that are represented in the country, and they could have had maybe a bit of a broader view on the importance of the chaplaincy service and how it could be strengthened.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Last, could you possibly describe how religious supports could also be extended to family members or loved ones of those in the CAF?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

In terms of the role of chaplains, chaplains provide pastoral care, and it doesn't stop once you're outside the armed forces or if you're not yourself an armed forces member but you're part of an armed forces family. The chaplain or padre can play a major role, often when there's not easy access to other religious leaders when serving or when on base. I think ensuring that those chaplains are present, readily available and have the resources they need to provide that care to families more broadly is really critical.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Could you elaborate on what you feel is at risk if the CAF loses access to those religious supports?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

What is at risk is that you would marginalize significant portions of the Canadian population, and, by extension, the CAF population who adhere to certain religious traditions, who would effectively not be able to have chaplains were these recommendations to go forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Kramp-Neuman.

Mr. Fisher, you have four minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today and for sharing your testimony.

Dr. McDaniel, transition is an incredibly complex process. It probably shouldn't be, but it seems to be. It seems that the majority of the onus is put on the individual, the transitioning member, for that very complex process. I was going to ask you what your recommendations are, but I want to thank you for presenting those recommendations with clarity. If you have more that come out of this testimony, I would suggest that it would be wonderful if you would submit those to us as well.

The Veterans Transition Network website talks about the job market and about how, when veterans are transitioning, they come out with a set of military skills, and then employers don't necessarily know how to recognize.... How do we put those groups together? How do we get employers to recognize that special set of skills and how they can utilize those in today's...?

We have a major labour issue in Canada, and if there were a way of helping the veterans but also helping employers see the value of some of those military skill sets....

[Matthew McDaniel]

It's a good question.

My expertise has to do with psychological interventions, so my mind goes to what psychological interventions we might be able to do. I would love it if, included in the roster of services for transition, was employment counselling, quite directly helping veterans.

I am not saying that it's not available at all, but it's not available enough. Veterans need help translating on their CVs, between a military culture and a civilian culture, what they are capable of. They have soft skills that perhaps people don't understand around teamwork and focus, which you learn in the military. That's where my mind goes first: actually empowering the veterans with skills.

Is it not possible for us to be doing public campaigns that let the public know about this, that show examples of successful employment transitions between a military and a civilian context? I am sure there are some amazing success stories out there where people use the skills that the government gives folks now in the civilian sector.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you for that.

As was all your testimony today, it was very clear and articulate on how to get to the goal.

When we think about a transitioning CAF member, that person has a cultural identity as a member of the Canadian military. You talked about the psychological impacts. What are we doing to help with that transition from a psychological standpoint, how are we doing it and how could we perhaps do better?

[Matthew McDaniel]

There are services available. There are case managers. There are psychological support services available, of course, with VAC.

What I am advocating for here is that these services be made more specific, that they're made more practical and skills based, and that they're made more social based.

A word that has come up a couple of times, which I wish I had included in my recommendations because it's good, is the word “preventative”. As I've mentioned before, rather than waiting for folks to express distress or fall through the cracks, I think that involves being on top of it beforehand and checking in with folks before that and ensuring that these services are made regular and made available. It also involves, as you say, treating that transition as a complex and supportive process that can prevent problems in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Desilets, you have one minute.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McDaniel, on the subject of veterans, it’s often said—we experience it too—that the armed forces work in parallel or in silos.

If you agree with that, in your opinion, can that have an impact on people’s mental health?

[Matthew McDaniel]

Let me make sure that I understand the question.

I think you're saying that the armed forces and veterans are, in a way, siloed away or maybe less connected with other aspects of society or other groups than would be positive. I absolutely think that is a challenge. In some ways it's necessary, considering the intensity of skills and training and what we ask of them for them to end up being quite cohesive within themselves.

I also think that what we're talking about is this challenge of how you move on from that cohesiveness, come apart and rejoin with new groups within society. How can we help them learn how to do that? That, indeed, could be benefited by finding ways to make sure that the armed forces are more connected with other aspects of our society before transition.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

You talk a lot about prevention. Many people face problems related to the transition to civilian life. In concrete terms, how can we prevent such problems?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a significant question, and unfortunately, Mr. Desilets, there's left no time to answer it. I'm sure you'll be able to work it in to another answer.

You hae a minute, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Dr. Azad, thank you so much for talking about a lot of the conditions that you see when medical release happens early and the issues. Because I have such limited time, can you quickly discuss the link between chronic pain and mental health, and also other systems around the world that may be dealing with this in a far better way, to avoid that long-term injury but also that long-term mental health issue.

[Dr. Ayla Azad]

Thank you so much. I've been fascinated by this conversation and Dr. McDaniel's comments. You cannot have mental health without physical health, and he put it correctly—we all need to be working together.

Chronic pain and mental health are directly connected. Sixty-five per cent of people who have chronic pain will also have a mental health issue, and I believe the stats go both ways.

As far as your comments about other models, I know we do things differently here, but around the world, if you look just south of the border in the United States, they actually have integrated teams on bases. They have chiropractors on staff working together with professionals. We now know that interdisciplinary integrated models of care are the best way to treat patients, because we are not siloed, as someone put it. You can't have mental health and not think about all the other conditions that the patient may be going through. It must be a team-based collaborative approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

Mrs. Gallant, you have four minutes.