Evidence of meeting #62 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
To Deacon Bennett. I understand that the chaplaincy may be replaced with social workers. Does the Vatican ordain CAF social workers to give last rights?
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
10:40 a.m.
Director, Cardus
No, it does not, unless they have a theological formation. Someone could have a social work background but also have a theology degree, so they could be ordained but certainly not with exclusively a social work background.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Social workers must be in very high demand. They're even used instead of clinical psychologists for treating CAF.
Dr. Azad, does clinical evidence exist to support the claim that chiropractic care can improve performance or heal a musculoskeletal injury, the type that soldiers sustain?
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chiropractic Association
Absolutely. There is more and more evidence showing chiropractic care, manual therapy care—they call it “multimodal care” is the best approach for many musculoskeletal conditions. Yes, there's guideline after guideline now that talks about musculoskeletal conditions and how manual therapy plays an incredibly important role in the first line of care.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
I understand that massage therapy is not a covered benefit either. Do you have any idea why massage therapy and chiropractics are covered medical services once a person releases from the forces but not during their service?
10:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chiropractic Association
I can't comment on that. I don't know why that's in place. It would make sense that these things be covered. I think what's happening in the Canadian Armed Forces.... I feel like sometimes Veterans Affairs is taking over some of the issues.
We've talked about prevention. If we can get in earlier and start preventative care for some of these military personnel and get to see them quickly, hopefully it will prevent downstream issues.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Back to Deacon Bennett, the Prime Minister's culture wars have spread to the CAF, and now it appears to be discriminating against the three Abrahamic religions from the chaplaincy. Do you think that the CAF understands this issue and that if the chaplains are not able to abide by the new CAF values, then CAF is not the place for them? What are your thoughts on that?
10:45 a.m.
Director, Cardus
When someone is called to be a chaplain in the armed forces, or a chaplain anywhere for that matter, they're doing it, fundamentally, to serve the people they minister to. Those people, especially CAF personnel, who have a deep religious faith. It could be a theistic faith. It could be atheistic philosophy or another philosophy. They need to have access to those professional pastoral care workers, clerical or lay, who have an integrated authentic faith. They want to be able to go to someone who believes what they believe, so that they can have trust there. That's critical.
We have to ensure in the chaplaincy service that the chaplains who are there can live out their faith fully, that they can express their faith fully, so as to best serve those people who come to them seeking support, maybe seeking help in a moral injury. If there isn't that trust that “you believe what I believe,” then it's hard for them to find the care that they would be looking for. Trust has to be a foundation for that.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
There's not a specific religion that deploys a chaplain with a specific religion all across the board for each time they go on a tour of duty.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You mentioned that trust is important, but when a unit deploys, they can't have a chaplain from every religion.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
10:45 a.m.
Director, Cardus
The chaplain who is there has to be able to engage people of other faiths, but that doesn't mean that they drop their own faith. They have to be able to engage them from their faith tradition, out of love, out of concern and to demonstrate genuine pastoral care.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there.
Ms. O'Connell, the final four minutes are yours.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to begin by thanking all three of our witnesses on this panel. I think you've each brought forward a different perspective that we haven't heard until now.
Dr. McDaniel, I just want to start by saying that everything you said makes so much sense. I'll definitely be looking towards your testimony when I'm putting forward my recommendations because it seems obvious, yet it's really not.
I'm wondering if you could just clarify. I know you mentioned instances where group therapy would help because, of course, loneliness is one of the big issues and feeling that support is definitely helpful. You also mentioned practising social situations and scenarios. Would this be considered behavioural therapy? What is the specific type of therapy that you think would benefit veterans?
10:45 a.m.
National Clinical Director, Veterans Transition Network
This is more integrated than behavioural therapy. It does involve behavioural components in that we are doing active skills rehearsal in a group context, allowing them to actually practice situations that they're going to encounter as they transition, but it's more than that. This also looks at their thoughts and their emotions when they're in these processes. Doing that in a group context really helps with that, because it's a lot easier to get feedback on yourself when you're in a group of people that you trust and you're able to ask them, “How was that? I'm thinking this. Are you thinking that? This is what I'm feeling. What are you feeling?”
All around, this prepares them much better than if they were sitting and reading something about how to transition.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you. I appreciate that clarification.
Deacon Bennett, I have a question for you. I agree that, when someone is in a situation of crisis, they turn towards their faith and begin a spiritual journey, perhaps. I imagine that members in the armed forces are at a particular place and point in their lives where they may need this service and where they may need this guidance.
We also know, though, that we're opening up and we're trying to be as inclusive as possible in the armed forces. There are members of different backgrounds. There are members of the LGBTQIA+ community, and obviously everybody needs to be respectful. We're moving towards a better culture in the armed forces.
Given this context, can you elaborate a little on how we could go forward, allowing people, pastors, imams, rabbis and spiritual leaders of all faiths to be involved while still maintaining that level of respect for all members of the CAF?
10:45 a.m.
Director, Cardus
We have to recognize that at the core of all these different religious traditions, particularly the Abrahamic faiths, there's an understanding of the inherency of human dignity. While a particular religious tradition might have a different view of anthropology or of sexuality, at the core—certainly of the Christian tradition, the Jewish tradition and the Islamic tradition—is an understanding of the dignity of the human person.
While there might be differences of views on sexuality, anthropology and what have you, we're still called to recognize, in the person with whom we might disagree, their inherent dignity. Certainly, chaplains have to be able to minister to them, recognizing that dignity.
To say that if you hold a particular view that's not in sync with a particular secular view you're not qualified to be a chaplain is very narrow-minded and doesn't demonstrate the sort of robust pluralism and diversity that we should be really advancing within our society and certainly within the CAF. Given the realities of Canadian Armed Forces personnel and what they deal with, they need to be able to have access to authentic, integrated pastoral care.
10:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.
That brings our session to an end.
I want to, on behalf of the committee, thank our three witnesses. I apologize again for having to bump you from Tuesday to Friday. That's just the life of parliamentarians.
Colleagues, if you could stay for a second, I have three things I need to deal with quickly.
One is the budget, which has already been distributed, for the health services. I need someone to move it.
I saw Ms. O'Connell twitch, so she's moved it. Mr. May has seconded it.
Is there any conversation?
