National Defence Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave that shopping list right there.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We're going to have to leave that until the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, indeed.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That's a lot of investment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a lot of investment indeed.

Madam Normandin, you have six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

It's a pleasure to have you here today, Mr. Minister. Thank you for your availability.

I'd like to start with a question about your former role. This summer saw an increase in climate crises, particularly forest fires. For much of the summer, you were the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, and one of the responses you had to the lack of provincial or federal capacity was to call in the army. However, now you're on the other side of the looking glass in a context where we know that climate crises are going to increase, and we have an attrition phenomenon in the armed forces where we risk having more and more difficulty responding to demands and threats.

Do you have any guidelines on how to deal with the increasing use of the armed forces in domestic operations?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you for the question.

If I may, let me speak a bit about the wildfires that took place in Quebec. It is primarily the responsibility of the provincial authority and local authorities to respond in the first instances to those fires, but I was in close contact with François Bonnardel, from the Quebec government, who quickly identified that they needed some help.

We did call upon the Canadian Armed Forces, but we also went looking for other resources through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, CIFFC, in order to access additional resources from other provinces, first of all. In my conversations with Minister Bonnardel, I personally reached out to the United States and made arrangements with their FEMA people to gain access to additional firefighters, firefighting equipment and water bombers in order to provide that assistance. We were very fortunate, and the Canadian Armed Forces were able to quickly respond, as they did, by the way, for the fires in Nova Scotia, in Alberta, in the Northwest Territories and in British Columbia. There was a very significant deployment of those resources.

I had conversations at the time with the chief of defence and, of course, we've had many more robust conversations about the impact of those deployments. I think it is one of their responsibilities to be there for Canadians when we need them, but it had a very significant impact on their capabilities and their capacity to respond to other duties in Canada and around the world. It impacted on their training facilities, and I believe it also had an impact on the men and women who serve. Responding to those very difficult and dangerous situations can be a real challenge for them. They were away from their families and their communities for a period of time.

I think it's incumbent upon us, even though we call upon them and we take full advantage of that resource, to always remember the cost that the Canadian Armed Forces and their members are paying for that service. We're working very carefully with our provincial partners to make sure that we find every way to help the provinces when they need our help and to help Canadians when they need our help, but also to make sure that we're mindful of the impact it's having on the CAF.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much. We would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the forces who fought the fires.

I'd like to go back to Mr. Bezan's question. The Strong, Secure, Engaged policy provided for a 70% increase in spending over 10 years, and we know that all departments are being asked to make $15 billion in cuts. We often hear about places where the Department of National Defence won't make cuts. We know that it won't cut infrastructure, international aid or equipment procurement.

So I'd like to know where these cuts will be made. That's the question I haven't had an answer to yet.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's a very difficult and challenging question.

The fiscal environment in Canada right now requires that, when we are spending Canadian taxpayers' dollars, we do it carefully and thoughtfully. I've always looked upon the expenditure of tax dollars as an investment in creating public value for Canadians. It is incumbent upon all of our departments to make sure we're doing that as carefully and appropriately as possible. At the same time, I also want to assure you and every member of this committee of our unwavering commitment to make sure that we support the Canadian Armed Forces, the people who are doing the work, and that we get them the equipment they need. We are looking very carefully at expenditures. It may require, for example, that we make different choices.

The first thing I would offer in response to your question is that we would start to reduce significantly the professional services that we sometimes contract, and then you and I had a conversation about the excellent work that a private company does in supplying services to the college at Saint-Jean. I went back and shared that with our colleagues and said that we need to be careful that we don't cut something that's producing real value and is a good expenditure.

I wanted to share that with you because I thought it was a very good intervention, but we do know that we have to look very carefully at expenditures. It may actually require that, for some of the investments we know we have to make, we make them over a longer period of time in response to the current fiscal situation, but I want to assure you of our commitment to still get that job done.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much. I'll continue quickly.

One of the reasons people often join the Canadian Armed Forces is to be able to take part in missions abroad. Currently, military members train for six months in Canada, then continue their training abroad or train others abroad, without actually taking part in missions. However, we haven't kept our promise to participate more in international peacekeeping missions, such as the blue helmets, or in some other way with the United Nations.

Does that concern you?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have one and a half seconds to respond to that.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The answer is, yes, we'll look at that, but the navy is doing something where it's allowing somebody to sign up not for three years but for 12 months. We'll learn from that experience and see if there are other ways in which we can encourage people to come into the service.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

Thank you to all the guests here.

Canadians were really shocked to hear the story of ex-corporal Arianna Nolet, the military sexual trauma survivor who was denied her day in court because of the failing justice system in her case. In his ruling to stay her case, the judge stated that the case had an albatross of nine months of delay under the military justice system clasped stubbornly around its neck. We've heard warnings that this is only a first case to be thrown out due to the concurrent jurisdiction issue.

This can be solved very quickly with a simple bill in the House. I think that you could make some significant changes with a piece of legislation like that. However, in terms of the larger reforms that are necessary, Arbour herself called it “the graveyard of recommendations”. Getting that bill right, I know, is of concern to you. You've expressed that before and today as well.

I think we need that comprehensive plan, as you said, and to work beyond partisanship. I'm also concerned because, when we heard from the external monitor at this committee, she specifically said that there was no comprehensive plan yet.

I'd like to know how that's changed. I know it's been a short time since you've become minister, but I would like to know how that's changed. I would like to know that we're providing the survivors with justice as quickly as we possibly can, so I'm wondering if you would act to bring forward legislation to end that concurrent jurisdiction issue to ensure that every survivor can get their day in court as they need it.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, I can't eliminate that albatross of dual-jurisdiction time simply with legislation. The Jordan decision is a decision that the court will take notice of. If a case has already spent a long period of time in the military justice system and has now transitioned over to the civilian system, the civilian system has an obligation to take into account that time.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the frustration and hurt that all victims will feel. They seek justice, and they seek some resolution. I think we also have an obligation to find every way to support them during that process.

With respect to dealing within the legislation, first of all we have taken interim steps to make that transition, and all those cases are now being referred to the criminal justice system. I am also struck by the urgency.

I'm going to jump back a little bit. I also met with the external monitor yesterday. We talked about the need for a well-articulated strategic plan. I'd like to work on that with all of you, quite frankly. We've had some conversations already, but I think there's much more work that needs to be done.

In coming forward, I don't believe it might be possible. If you have a different perspective, share it with me, please, but I think it would be very challenging to address all 48 of Justice Arbour's recommendations in legislation within the time period that we currently have available to us. It would just simply take a long time. Therefore, one of the conversations I want to have with all of you is this: Help me prioritize, and help us determine what we can and must deal with very quickly.

I'm hoping to bring legislation before the House early in the new year, because I need a window to pass that legislation. Also, I think that helping chart that path forward is part of articulating a strategic plan for moving it forward. It's also going to require, I think, a collaborative effort on all of our parts.

I will come back to this committee, and I'm going to ask for some help, not just in passing through a bill that we bring forward but in actually crafting that bill.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, that would be a very complicated bill that could take a lot of time and, like I said, right now you could end this concurrence of jurisdiction issue with something more simple. There's also the power that you hold as minister to task this committee with the creation of that bill in, hopefully, a very non-partisan way. Would you be interested in that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I've already articulated, I would very much like to be able to come with my team to this committee and to work with all of you. I believe that it is complicated and we have hard choices to make. Frankly, those choices are mine, but I would like your input. I'd like your advice on those things that this committee would prioritize. Many of you have really important perspectives on this, and I want to understand that.

There's also a broad consultation taking place with our Department of Justice officials. There's a broad consultation taking place with victims and with Justice Arbour and the external monitor. At the same time, I would like very much to be able to work with this committee—I hope I'll have the opportunity to do that—in addressing those things that you'll help me identify as the greatest priorities.

That's not to suggest for a moment.... I want to be very clear. All of Justice Arbour's recommendations are important. Some of them can be done fairly quickly. Some of them will take more time. I want to be able to make the right choices, to do the right thing and to make real progress on this. I think we have an opportunity to do that, but there's an urgency to it. I will bring forward a clear articulation of a strategy to move forward, but I am going to come back to you and ask for your help.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, many people have talked about the defence policy update. In fact, as I recall, the chair said earlier in the spring that it was soon to arrive. We didn't hear a date. We didn't hear any sort of timeline from you on that. Could we get one?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As soon as I have a date, I'll share it with you. It's a priority for me. There is important work going on. I'm relatively new to the portfolio. I hope my arrival hasn't delayed that decision, but I need to be up to date on it because we're putting in work on it. I have been well briefed of its importance.

The threat environment has changed significantly. There are many new things that we need to invest in and work that needs to be done. The chief of defence and my deputy minister have been very clear about the importance of that work. I'll move forward with that as quickly as I can.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Next is Shelby Kramp-Neuman for five minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Earlier this year, General Eyre was asked this question: Is Canada's military ready for the challenges ahead? His response was, “No. That's why it's so important we reconstitute our force, get our numbers back up [and] that we get the capabilities in place that are relevant for the future security environment”.

Recognizing that the intent and the goodwill are maybe there, we need to hone in on tangible metrics to ensure progress is actually happening. How many applicants has the CAF had since the reconstitution order was announced?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Just give me one second. I'll look that up because I'd like to give you an accurate number. Somebody has to point me at it.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If you don't have it right at your fingertips, perhaps you could circle back to us in a note.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

It's 30,000 this fiscal year.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

This fiscal year so far, 30,000 people have come through the door and put their hands up, and we're working through those applications.