National Defence Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Orest Zakydalsky]

I think Canada, the Canadian government and everyone involved is in support of Ukraine. We would like to see more being done on the military, economic and humanitarian fronts to support Ukraine, especially at a time when some of the support from other countries is, if not under question, then certainly becoming more difficult to predictably sustain, as we're seeing right now in the United States.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

One thing that concerns us—I asked the ambassador this question as well, but the Canadian government didn't really answer—was a report in The Globe and Mail a few weeks ago about Kyrgyzstan re-exporting Canadian-made electric detonators to Russia. These detonators are potentially being used with landmines. We didn't receive answers from the government. They could be used by Russia against Ukraine.

Can you comment on the seriousness of Canada's arms export control system? Is it not working as intended? What is your perception of that?

[Orest Zakydalsky]

We were asked for comment on those reports. If these reports are true, they're deeply concerning.

We've written to both the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Public Safety to see what the situation is and whether those reports are accurate.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Did she respond?

[Orest Zakydalsky]

We have not yet received a response from the government.

The only thing I will add is that one thing we keep talking to the Canadian government about is the need to ensure that sanctions are not only implemented but also enforced. Sanctions that are implemented but not enforced are not really sanctions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

We need to do 25 minutes' worth of questions in 15 minutes, so we'll do three minutes, three minutes, one minute, one minute, three minutes and three minutes.

Mr. Bezan, go ahead for three minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.

I'm looking at the fall economic update and what we're doing in the estimates around military assistance in the world. For this year, it's $816 million, less $55 million for in-kind contributions. Next year, it's down to $318 million, and in 2025-26, it says $197 million.

Is anyone here concerned that there is a lack of support going forward for Ukraine, based upon the economic update?

Dr. Perry.

[Dr. David Perry]

I'd say a couple of things.

I think we're seeing the importance now of multi-year funding and commitments, and sustainable, predictable support with that.

I think we're also seeing the consequences of not having that in the past in terms of investing in our own armed forces over multiple years, decades and governments, which has directly impacted what they've been able to donate directly. We're seeing the impact of having, I think, far too lean a structure, with very limited ability to donate.

I'm also concerned by what was in the fall economic statement about additional budget cuts. We don't have details yet about the impact on National Defence, but I don't think it's at all inconceivable that it could potentially impact some of the programs, like the munitions supply program, as well as the maintenance of existing military equipment. That might have an impact down the road on our ability to make donations to Ukraine in the future.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Dr. Perry, with your experience and expertise on the Canadian Armed Forces.... One thing Ukraine was calling for last week was to include provisions of F-18 fighter jets. Of course, we have a fleet of CF-18s that are going to be replaced with F-35s. That took 10 extra years to make a decision on, unfortunately.

What would be the time frame for when our surplus CF-18s might be available to donate to Ukraine when we get our F-35s?

[Dr. David Perry]

I'm not clear on that, because it remains a bit murky. I don't know what kind of serviceable state the ones we aren't currently operating are in or to what standard the Ukrainians would want them. We certainly have expertise in that, but I think—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We just got 18 F-18s from the Australians that were retrofitted. Supposedly they're in good flying condition, you would think.

[Dr. David Perry]

My understanding was that some quantity of them are in the process of being further upgraded, so I don't know exactly how many are flyable and able to be donated. I've seen some concerning reporting, too, about how many technicians and pilots are available to operate and service the ones we already have. I don't really have the full details—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We were looking at donations of Howitzers and Leopard tanks to Ukraine. Have you heard of any plans to replace those Howitzers and Leopard tanks or any plans to even buy new tanks to replace our aging fleet of Leopards?

[Dr. David Perry]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Baker, you have three minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

I'd like to direct my question to Mr. Michalchyshyn. I was going to ask about something else, but today in the House of Commons, a comment was made that upset me. I want to know if he has a reaction to it.

The Leader of the Opposition referred to Ukraine as a faraway foreign land. We heard those comments in the lead-up to World War II from other leaders.

I'm wondering if he has any comments on that.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I wasn't able to hear question period today. Ukraine has been described as a close neighbour or as the easternmost province, and Canada as an oblast of Ukraine. I think our people-to-people ties are incredibly close, as committee members around the table know.

I think that's a mischaracterization of the relationship in terms of the people and the history of our cultural, economic and now military co-operation. Certainly we've seen that the Canadian public is very supportive of the refugees, as Orest said—the 200,000-plus, I think, displaced persons or refugees, as we call them colloquially. The public support for increased humanitarian and military assistance continues to be strong.

Our job is to maintain that consensus with the public and with Parliament, to keep working forward.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much for that.

First of all, I want to highlight that the funding from the Government of Canada for Operation Unifier and for military aid for Ukraine in various forms continues to increase. I want to get that on the record.

I also want to ask about this. A comment was made by Mr. Zakydalsky at the beginning, if I heard him correctly, that there are people in Canada who don't support Ukraine and who don't want Ukraine to win. We've seen Russia, really in a dedicated way over the past number of years, using misinformation campaigns to influence people's perceptions around the world. We've seen it in the United States. We've seen it here, I believe.

I'm wondering if our representative from the RAND Corporation wants to comment on what we are seeing in terms of the weakening of support for Ukraine in some small but vocal circles.

Is this the result or consequence of those misinformation campaigns by Russia?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a good question, Mr. Baker, but you've given the gentleman four seconds to answer it, so—

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I apologize for that.

Can you perhaps provide us an answer in writing?

[Howard Shatz]

I have colleagues who are looking at this. I will reach out to them and we will get you an answer to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

You have one minute, Madame Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

My question is for Mr. Perry and deals with ammunition production.

We know the situation is rather critical. We've often heard the argument that the government doesn't need to support ammunition production because the industry should realize there's a market due to the war that's going to last a long time.

Why is that not a valid argument?

[Dr. David Perry]

It's an entirely government-influenced and controlled market, either to supply to our own government or to export to another one. Without a surety.... It's not like producing any type of product that is not controlled by an export control regime or purchased directly by the Department of Defence. It requires government support.

If it was your own capital, you'd be putting it at risk by investing it without an assurance of a government contract or pre-approval for an export permit.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Mathyssen is next, for one minute, please.