National Defence Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

In your opening statement, Minister, you said that 40% of ATIP requests are not completed within the legally required time. I appreciate that you said you wouldn't make excuses, so I'll ask you a different question. What percentage of unlawful delay would you consider acceptable?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think the standard is well set, and we work very hard to achieve it. I've acknowledged that 38.27% of those not meeting that standard is unacceptable, and improvements must be made. I think we aim towards 100%. That's what the law requires.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

Of course, your government, and you, campaigned on a promise in 2015 to be the most open and transparent government in Canadian history. Eight years later, almost 40% of your ATIP requests are unlawfully delayed.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

They're not meeting the standard required, and I've talked about the steps we are taking to work towards meeting that standard.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Some alarming information came out in Mr. Bezan's questions. Your report says that only three ATIP requests that are more than five years old are still outstanding. Mr. Matthews thought that maybe the number was five, yet Mr. Bezan has four himself. We're left to wonder how accurate the report is that you are publicly providing to Canadians about ATIP requests.

Are there, in fact, many more than just the three to five that may be outstanding, or has Mr. Bezan been singled out for non-response to his ATIPs?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm not sure that we have the time or resources to single out Mr. Bezan. However, as I've already offered to him, if he provides me with the information on his requests, we will first of all determine their status and then compare that against the existing data.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

The information is public. These are ATIP requests. This is not something that should require a televised committee hearing with the minister to sort out. These are old requests for access to information, just like any member of the public should be able to file.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm grateful that Mr. Bezan brought it to my attention this morning because it's the first time I've learned that he has four outstanding ATIP requests. I have undertaken, as I said to him and this committee, that I'll look at those to see their status.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

When we say “outstanding”, we're just talking about the ones that have been outstanding since 2019 or earlier. There are a lot more than just four, but these are the ones in an almost hopelessly delayed situation.

Are you able to assure this committee and Canadians that these four ATIP requests of Mr. Bezan's really are the only ATIP requests from 2019 or earlier that your department has failed to process?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, as I've undertaken, when Mr. Bezan presents me with that information, I'll compare it against our records and speak to the deputy minister. He's indicated that he's aware of five. I haven't seen that data, but I'd like to see Mr. Bezan's reports, and we'll compare those against the data that exists.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You're certain that there are no journalists, no academics, no researchers, no members of the public, no victims of sexual assault or no other members of the public who may also have outstanding ATIP requests.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've actually read, as Ms. Mathyssen shared with us, that there are a number of journalists complaining about outstanding records requests as well. It's one of the reasons, as I said in my opening remarks, that I acknowledge that more work needs to be done. We are working through the processes to improve our response to ATIP requests.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

How else would you explain that out of all the thousands and thousand of people who file ATIP requests, an opposition member of Parliament seems to be the only one who has outstanding ATIP requests that old?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I wouldn't want to speculate on what may have happened. It's one of the reasons I've invited Mr. Bezan to share that information with us. We'll get to the bottom of it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

All right.

I don't have very much time left. There's so much I could get to, but you mentioned Bill C-58 in your opening remarks. The Information Commissioner of the day called it a step backward. She said it actually took away some of the access to information that existed before Bill C-58. It was more than a broken promise; it was a reverse promise of the 2015 election.

You mentioned the order-making powers. Your government is presently refusing to comply with an order of the Information Commissioner and is taking the Information Commissioner to court. Is that openness and transparency at work?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sure the minister would love to answer that question. If he can do it in 15 seconds, we're happy to entertain it. Otherwise, I'll move on.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't believe that matter arises from my department. I don't have the information on it, Mr. Kelly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Go ahead, Mr. Fillmore.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, Generals, Deputy and Secretary, thank you very much for being with us today.

Minister, as you know, I represent Halifax. Halifax is home to the east coast navy and home to the 5th Canadian Division of the Canadian Army. Across the harbour, Mr. Fisher represents the 12 Wing Shearwater. Between us, there are 10,000 CAF employees, 7,500 of whom wear uniforms, in Halifax.

Bringing their voices to the House of Commons and to this committee room is a responsibility we take very seriously. On their behalf, I want to say thank you for your service—all of you—and for being here with us today.

Minister Blair, in your opening remarks, you touched on the importance of not allowing any room for political interference. I wonder if you would like to share your thoughts with the committee on any such allegations. How are the CAF and your office ensuring that there is no political interference at any time, anywhere?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Fillmore.

Let me give you an example. Although I have not seen evidence that there is interference in, for example, the decisions made by certain officers and members who are responsible within our justice system.... Because they are, in fact, appointed either by the chief of defence or by the minister, there have been recommendations made to us by Justice Morris Fish with respect to the appearance of potential interference and influence by either the chain of command or the minister in decisions that should be independent.

A number of recommendations have been made. I'm hoping, quite sincerely, to bring before Parliament, and thereafter to this committee, legislation that will make changes that enable us to create not only true independence of justice actors within the military justice system, but also the appearance of independence as well. I believe that's necessary to do through legislative change. I'll be coming back before Parliament shortly in an effort to deal with that.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Okay, thank you.

I want to switch gears to procurement, if I could.

Because of the density of CAF operations in Halifax, we have a high number of procurement operations under way at any given time, so we see a lot of it there. I want to touch on the notion of intergenerational or multi-generational procurement.

As we know, staff move—they retire or percolate out to other parts of the country. I wonder if you, the deputy or whoever could talk to us about how we're managing these multi-generational procurements in an effective way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

If we could tie it into the study, that would be helpful.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll happily turn that over to the deputy minister to comment.

Perhaps the most obvious thing for the city of Halifax and multi-generational procurement is the national shipbuilding strategy. We have undertaken to make a very significant investment, first of all in the building of six new Arctic and offshore patrol vessels, followed by up to 16 of our new surface combatant ships, all of which will be built in the Halifax region.

We know that this work takes a significant amount of time and a retooling of the shipbuilding yard there. At the same time, it also requires that we maintain the existing fleet, so we have contracts that impact Halifax and other parts of Canada for the maintenance of, for example, the Halifax fleet.

These are multi-generational investments. They require creating and sustaining an effective workforce in municipalities and communities where that work needs to take place.

I think there is a very significant benefit to Canadians through those investments. They're ultimately going to deliver for us a new capability for the Royal Canadian Navy, which I think is going to be nothing short of extraordinary, but it takes a very long time to complete. It really takes more than just a decision to purchase. It's an investment in industry, in workers and in community that makes all those things possible.

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I'll comment on the multi-generational aspect of procurement. I will tie it to this study because it's already been flagged for this group that there was a large ATIP related to the surface combatant.

When you're dealing with one of these multi-generational procurements, the records we have and the people who are involved in the procurements change over time. The minister mentioned digitization in his opening remarks. Think about that in the context of someone who has moved on from their job when the ATIP comes in. They may have filed their emails properly and there may be paper records. Someone who was not here at that time is now basically wading their way through those records to pull together some information.

That's the challenge on some of these long-standing procurements. Surface combatants are a great example. I'll underscore the minister's comments on digitization. That will help us with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Deputy Minister Mathews, for tying that into the study. I appreciate it.

Ms. Normandin, you have two and a half minutes.