National Defence Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

I want to return to a couple of point to make sure that we get responses clearly on the record.

When Mrs. Gallant was talking about the risks to national security that go along with international research in particular—and she talked about a few other things—I saw all three of you nodding vigorously, but a nod doesn't get into the testimony.

I would ask each of you to spend a quick few seconds and let us know, for the record, whether you agree with the concerns raised by Mrs. Gallant.

[Jennifer Carr]

For the record, anywhere we use a contractor when we could use a federal public servant is a risk to national security. We don't have control of the information. The information is held by third parties and is at risk.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Winger.

[June Winger]

In light of what was just said, I can't agree that every international contractor could end up being a risk. We do a lot of work with international companies.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I don't think she said every one, and neither did I. Rather, international research and co-operation with contractors is a possible risk.

[June Winger]

It could be a risk.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

All right. Thank you.

Mrs. Kramp-Neuman talked about contracting out as an expedient when dealing with the recruitment and retention crisis that has reduced the capacity of the Canadian Armed Forces.

On December 7, the deputy minister said, “I would also stress that we are in an environment where we are down in numbers on the military side. We're already asking civilians, where possible, to pick up some of that slack”.

I want to make sure this is clear in the testimony. When he said “civilians”, did you believe this meant contractors being given this additional capacity work, or that it hasn't increased on the civilian...?

[Jennifer Carr]

Yes, it might be taken out of context.

The “one defence team” motto means that, whenever we need all hands on deck, civilians will come in and help. I can't say, without having the context in which that was said, whether or not they're using those jobs.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

I think her question was, “Are you seeing a shift of work from CAF members to DND civilian employees or contractors?”

Do you think this might be going to contractors, or do you not know?

[Jennifer Carr]

I can't say.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

[June Winger]

We've always worked side by side with CAF members. That's a great deal of our work. There is opportunity when there are fewer CAF members available. There's a potential that this could be contracted out when they simply don't have enough people to do the work.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

A response to a question earlier—I don't remember which one, but I want to make sure I have this clearly—said it was Deloitte that was given a consulting contract with the question, “Should there be more consulting contracts?” They in fact affirmed this would be a good thing.

Was it Deloitte that did this for the CAF?

[June Winger]

Yes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. We've heard of other contractors being given that same thing. I think McKinsey was tasked with the same thing. It was a similar response, as well.

Do you have any more comments on this type of expenditure by the Crown and whether there's value for service in something like that?

[June Winger]

Well, this is certainly a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. It's ridiculous to even ask this sort of thing from that group. I think their report very much illustrates their recommendation for why all of this work should be contracted out.

However, when we looked at the raw data from the department that was shared with us, their report was missing key information. Only the things that fit their narrative and drew the conclusion they wanted—which was supportive of contracting out—were included in the report, yet we saw all sorts of data that wasn't.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

The current government is in the midst of cutting the defence budget by a billion dollars.

Do you think there's a billion dollars? Where are these cuts going? Who's going to be affected by them? Are you concerned that your own members are at risk, given that the government has announced a billion-dollar budget cut for the department?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Jennifer Carr]

So, 100%, we've been asking questions about who and where. We learned the lessons of the last deficit reduction action plan, and we want to make sure that operational services are maintained. The department has not come to the table with those jobs for us to do an analysis.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

I just want to ask something for my own clarification here. When the deputy minister says, “All hands on deck,” is he referring to employee civilians, to contractor civilians or to both?

[Jennifer Carr]

I can't say without the situation. I can say that if we had a shortage at the base or had an incident and they were calling all hands on deck, that would mean that I, as an environment officer, could be helping stock shelves, or I could do other things. I need more context about what is being referred to in order to be able to tell you.

Obviously, the department should not be directing contractors to do things that are outside of their contracts. It does happen, and they do treat them like employees.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Collins, you have the final five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

We haven't talked a lot about grievances tonight. You have collective agreements that have language in them, I'm assuming, that deals with some of the matters that you've brought to the table. Can I ask about that in terms of the trends related to grievances as they relate to contracting-out provisions?

[Jennifer Carr]

Staffing is within the authority of the government and is not part of our contract. We definitely sit at the labour management table to try to address this, but the department says that it is within its sole prerogative.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Even when you have workplace issues, as you've described, in terms of people in the office, some of the....