Evidence of meeting #95 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
With regard to the low morale, the interplay, yes.
Liberal
Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay.
Would the same apply, President Winger, in your area?
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Yes. We were not able to achieve the same contracting-out language that PIPSC was able to get. Simply, the government was not interested. By the time we came to the bargaining, I think it saw the challenge with that. We don't even have the ability to grieve this. However, it is something that is an ongoing discussion when we have our union management meetings.
Liberal
Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
In terms of the contracts that are let out, one of the issues that always bothered me was that we're bound by a procurement process that says...low bid oftentimes and that those who meet the specs get the contract. You kind of get what you pay for is the old saying. However, we'd find, municipally, over a period of time that there would be certain chargebacks that then increased that contract value. I know you've done some studies—I think maybe with both unions—in terms of showing that this is a growing problem. I think it's not unique to the federal level. It's something that, I think, happens at all three levels of government. The private sector looks for ways and means in which to bump the value of the contract, in which to bump the value in terms of the revenues that come back to it in terms of the services it's providing or the products it's providing.
Do you have recommendations that would help the committee address that issue? That seems to be an area of concern for both unions.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
One of the solutions is to bring as much in house as possible. We don't have to rely on adding more to contracts if we have the in-house services.
One of the things, especially when looking at contracts, is that big corporations look at the contracts and look for voids. They look for what you haven't put in the contract. They know when they put their bid in that you haven't specified that, and they will go after those extra charges. It is known. They actually have people who comb through government contracts to find those loopholes.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Yes, I totally agree. I think that is a significant issue that we have going on.
I think of Goose Bay. The base is being run by a contractor out there, Serco. Continuously, they are having these add-ons. They think they have the contract nailed down, but then they find out that they have additional cost after additional cost. They ended up having to go to court over snow removal and ended up losing. Now they're paying additional for the contractor.
Liberal
Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay.
You talked about the apples-to-oranges comparison as it relates to the standards that the private sector is held to. Then I think you raised your members' equity, diversity and inclusion. Can you expand upon that in terms of what you would like to see written into contract language when it has been determined that those services, then, will be offered by the private sector?
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Yes, 100%. I think if we are going to rely on contractors, they should play by the same rules. I think that language requirements.... You know, one of the biggest barriers for some of our professional...or hires is language. If they can't find someone, they'll hire a contractor who is not bilingual. Therefore, it's saying, “I'm set to allow you to have a worker who can't work in both languages if they're contracted out.”
So, apply the same rules. Actually give the public servant a fair market rate. If you are willing to pay a contractor $10 more per hour, you should be able to pay the public service worker the same amount. Those are key. You have to apply the same accountability and transparency rules to contracts.
National President, Union of National Defence Employees
You've taken the words right out of my mouth. I think that's it perfectly in a nutshell. With the indigenous contracts, when they were supposed to have a certain number of staff who were indigenous—and this was in the news just this week—they were finding that that wasn't even being monitored and that the oversight did not exist. Frankly, I can think of contracts at National Defence in which that is not being upheld.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Collins.
That does bring our time together to an end. I want to thank you for your flexibility and your patience with us. I also want to thank colleagues for their flexibility in maximizing the time, given the votes that were in front of us.
The meeting is adjourned.