National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2025

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

A commissioned warship is considered sovereign territory, so if an incident were to happen on board in international waters, where would it fall in terms of jurisdiction? Who would investigate and who would try?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

My understanding is that the Canadian Armed Forces military police would investigate, collect information and make a decision about how to proceed.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

What if something happened in Canadian waters?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It would be the same thing.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Are foreign territory and Canadian waters the same thing?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm sorry. Forgive me. In Canadian waters, I think the matter would necessarily be transferred.

[Major-General Rob Holman, Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

If you are on board a Canadian warship, you are in Canadian territory. The military police would have jurisdiction in both cases.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

This bill would change the appointment of key authorities, such as the provost marshal, the director of military prosecutions, and the director of defence counsel services, in order to deal with undue influence.

What actions are being taken to ensure that there is no political pressure regardless of chain of command and that this undue influence is not simply shifted to another authority?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's an excellent question.

Ms. Gallant, if you see a way to improve that or make that more robust, we'd certainly be prepared to entertain it.

I would be hard pressed to believe that a minister of national defence would want to insert themselves in a prosecution of this kind. It's a legal matter. It's highly risky, illegal and unethical. It's against the ethics rules. It may be, depending on the nature of that kind of involvement, subject to the Criminal Code itself.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

What steps are being taken to guarantee access to witnesses and evidence, etc., on base, for civilian investigators?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

My understanding is that, with Bill C-11, this is basically an assignment of that responsibility and authority to the local police of jurisdiction. If there was a problem, for example, in Petawawa, whatever the local police of jurisdiction would be there would have virtually unfettered access to the evidence. The information and all of that documentation would have to be surrendered.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Given the backlogs in the civilian justice system, what measures are in place to ensure that victims are not simply transferred from an unjust system of cover-ups to one plagued with backlogs and delays?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I don't know if I would agree with your characterization of a system of cover-ups. This is extremely serious business.

The question of whether or not the provinces would be in a position to handle these prosecutions, these investigations through their police forces and their prosecutions, is one that we have been dialoguing with the provinces about for years. The MOU with Ontario indicates that it doesn't seem to be a problem in the making.

We need to work together on this to make sure that we have a high-performing Canadian Armed Forces. In my dialogue with provincial premiers—for example, with the premier of Alberta recently—I'm reminding them on a regular basis of the important role that our military plays, not only for their safety and security but for their economy.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

How many victims did your office hear from when drafting this bill?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We can get you that number.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Rural communities often have limited budgets or lack staff. It's my understanding that Bill C-11 does not offer any funding to ameliorate this. Why not?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Are you talking about investigating and prosecuting?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

That's correct.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No one has asked.

It's an interesting reality. Remember, too, that we have a Constitution. You wouldn't be surprised that if the federal government started inserting itself into public prosecutions or into prosecutions conducted by Crowns, we may be criticized as meddling in different provincial affairs.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Do you think the bill adequately protects the privacy of the victim, either from media attention or from harassment at work?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Yes, I do. I looked at that very carefully.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

What will the minister do for better security and other measures to reduce sexual assaults, since, really, the transfer passes the buck to an external justice without addressing the internal issue? The bill doesn't address the prevention of assaults.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

There are many measures that are under way. Much change has been effected over the last several years. You're right to point out the need to make systemic changes in the system. The chief of the defence staff, in a previous life, was responsible for implementing most of those changes. She's best placed at this table to help you on that one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Ms. Gallant, that was great.

Thank you so much, Minister.

I will give five minutes to Mr. Tim Watchorn.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Minister, I have a technical question on the way the military police conduct investigations outside the country. It's a cultural change for them. Will military police officers have access to training on how to conduct investigations outside the country? How will cases be transferred once the officers are back in Canada?