Evidence of meeting #14 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Just to confirm, then, there are none that you're aware of at all.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
What do you think would happen if these were all just thrown at you without additional funding or support?
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
That's a bit surprising to hear. Okay. Thank you very much. I truly appreciate that.
Mr. Kerr, you mentioned striking clauses 7 and 8. That's a fairly significant section of Bill C-11. Could you expand a little bit on that beyond the statement you made initially?
Dylan Kerr
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The recommendation would be based on the notion that we would retain concurrent jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute sexual offences. To the extent that clauses 7 and 8 create a new scheme whereby we would not have jurisdiction, my recommendation would be to abandon that portion of the bill and retain concurrent jurisdiction as it currently exists within the National Defence Act.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Is it your opinion that victims would prefer to have a choice? Would that still allow a choice between civilian and military systems, giving the choice to survivors?
Dylan Kerr
Yes. To begin with, you need to have concurrent jurisdiction before there can be choice. The concurrent jurisdiction would have to exist for choice to be there.
I would also add that it has been within the prosecution service's policies, since even before the Deschamps report, that the views of the victim with respect to jurisdiction are a significant factor to be considered in determining whether we prosecute within the military justice system or the civilian justice system. That's even clearer now with the implementation by the heads of prosecutions committee in the principles and presumptions for the exercise of concurrent jurisdiction.
Liberal
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you, Chair.
In my previous life, just for the edification of the witnesses, I was a journalist who covered military activities extensively, in particular at 8 Wing CFB Trenton. During the course of that career, I was called upon to cover courts martial that were held at Trenton as well. In those years and among those cases were three in particular, as I recall, that stood out as sexual assault cases that were heard.
We're discussing an awful lot of the legalese of the system right now, but I think we need to remember the complainants and/or the victims and survivors of these assaults. One thing always struck me: I noticed that in every case, in all the cases I recall, they were women complainants. They were women in uniform who went to a superior, who was himself, again, in all cases, a male superior, with the allegations and the complaint. They were then investigated by personnel from the military police, who were, again, members in uniform. The allegations were brought by the complainant of a person in uniform who had violated them. The court martial was held before a body of, again, her peers, all uniformed individuals.
Is this not a case of removing the factor that we heard in a lot of the cases, that there's a lack of trust? You are having your complaint heard by the very system that, if you were a victim, violated you.
I will bring it back to Professor Megan MacKenzie, who appeared here on November 6. She has dealt with an awful lot of the victims of sexual assault in the CAF:
I would just reiterate that the idea that having a choice is somehow better for survivors is actually inaccurate for most of the victims and survivors that I've spoken to. In the moments following an incident of sexual violence, it is very difficult for a victim to understand the consequences and the complexity of that choice. The default position for many survivors is to work within the military justice system, not because they think it's better but because that's the system they're in.
How, then, do you respond to the argument that civilian courts offer greater impartiality simply because they're structurally separate from the Canadian Armed Forces?
That question is for any of our three uniformed members on the panel today.
Dylan Kerr
The first thing I would say is that victim support has come a long way even in the last couple of years. Now, at the sexual misconduct support and resource centre, you have significant resources and support to help a victim navigate either system, to take the time to make that decision and to get independent legal advice in determining whether or not to report and who to report to and get assistance in navigating either the criminal justice system or the military justice system. That, on its own, is a significant change.
No one is proposing that a victim has to make a one-and-only choice in the moment in which they're the most vulnerable. I would agree with Professor MacKenzie. That's not a good time to make that decision, but we have support systems in place that will help them along the way. There are times when we know from our work with victims that many of them feel as though they must be empowered to make that decision themselves and feel let down by the military when a military police investigation or a court martial is not an option for them.
Not everyone will feel that way, obviously. I know this committee has heard different views from different victims, but the flexibility needs to be there to address each case and the needs of the victim in each and every case, and that can't occur unless there is concurrent jurisdiction.
Vanessa Hanrahan
I would amplify what Colonel Kerr has spoken to. I think it's exactly that; it's choice, and when you look at it in the moment, as Colonel Kerr has alluded to, that may not be the right time, but the military police are very well versed and trained to work with their victims so victims understand all of the nuances of the decisions and refer them.
We have independent victim services programs within our own military police organization, which amplify and work with the SMSRC to ensure that victims firmly understand, to the best of our abilities, the choices they are making.
Also, to amplify this, there's not just one choice. At any point in the process with concurrent jurisdiction, there's an ability to have a choice change. A victim, for example, in the beginning may ask for a military police investigation or, vice versa, a civilian police investigation, and during the course of that investigation they may change their mind and ask for something different. Concurrent jurisdiction allows us, from an investigative perspective and a prosecutorial perspective, to work with the victim to help them work through those choices at any point along that process.
We have had many cases where we have referred files to the civilian police. The civilian police have initiated investigations and, at the request of the victim, referred files back to the military police for us to then continue with the investigation. At the outcome of the investigation, working with Colonel Kerr's office and with civilian prosecutors, we can actually make a determination on what system works best for the laying of charges that we believe would provide justice to all involved.
Liberal
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their presentations.
Ms. Hanrahan, as we know, civilian police resources are limited, and they vary from province to province. We've heard from people from a police force, but not everyone everywhere has the same means or the same capacities.
How can we ensure the quality of the investigations that will be transferred to civilian authorities, especially when no additional federal funding is planned?
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Yes, that's not a problem. We have interpretation services.
Vanessa Hanrahan
I certainly wouldn't want to speak on behalf of what our civilian police authorities can do without federal funding, but I can certainly speak to the military police. The military police have two aspects that I think work to our benefit.
First and foremost, we're positioned all the way across the country, and we're designed to deal with investigations that span not just Canada but also the international environment. Therefore, we are better poised to be able to look at it and, instead of having to deal with multiple jurisdictions, we can actually incorporate all allegations into one investigation and have that carried out in a more succinct and effective manner.
Second, when you look at the sheer volume of Criminal Code sex offences we deal with within the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence, as I alluded to in my opening address, on average we have about 150. That's in comparison to thousands that happen in the civilian justice system. As a result, we are actually able to triage our files and pay attention to all of the files.
Also, we don't look at it just from meeting the elements of a Criminal Code sex offence. We have to look at the impact it has on the morale and discipline of the Canadian Armed Forces. By that, I mean that I believe the military police are better resourced and designed to be able to deal with that.
When we look at budgetary concerns, I, as a member of the military police, don't look at the dollars and cents of every individual investigation. I rely on the Canadian Armed Forces and, really, the Government of Canada to ensure that I'm properly funded to be able to carry out what is needed to ensure the discipline and the effective morale of the Canadian Armed Forces.
As a result of that, I think we are very effectively poised to be able to ensure that we have quality, effective investigations. We've proven that in the past and we will see to it that we continue to prove that into the future.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
You say you don't take into consideration the cost of each investigation.
Is that correct?
The interpretation was quick, so I want to make sure I understood you correctly.
Vanessa Hanrahan
We absolutely do not look at the dollars and cents of an individual investigation. We look at each individual investigation and we take that investigation and determine how we can possibly do it, and we work through that entire file to determine whether or not it has an impact on the public safety of our defence community as well as the morale and discipline of the Canadian Armed Forces.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
We've often heard the same comment by witnesses. I'm thinking in particular of testimony by Karen Breek, a retired major. She said that a number of police forces did not have the means or resources they needed to do their work and that they were short-staffed.
Do you have the same concerns?
Vanessa Hanrahan
That's a concern we all have in today's environment, where we're all struggling to maintain effective staffing numbers. The difference for me is I have the ability to prioritize and look at what investigations have to happen across the Canadian Armed Forces and dedicate those resources to them accordingly.
It's a fair point. When I look at my civilian police counterparts, I'd be in the same situation in being able to have enough resources to deal with all aspects of policing in a Canadian environment. I think we're unique where, because of the sheer volume of the files that we deal with, I am better poised to dedicate my resources differently to address those that are concerns for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
There's also the case of military bases deployed in remote areas. There are often simply no civilian police officers, or it can be extremely difficult for them to move quickly from one region to another.
Do you have a plan to manage such cases?
Vanessa Hanrahan
Yes, I would completely agree with that. There are cases where we work all across the country in various remote locations, such as the north. The military police are poised to do that. We have an on-call, high-readiness part of our organization that essentially, at a moment's notice, can get on a plane and fly anywhere in Canada.
We also have members pre-positioned all across the country, so it's not a matter of coming from one specific location. If I need to, I can purport people anywhere relatively quickly. Again, if I don't have to rely on the civilian system, I can also use our own internal military logistical support to ensure I can get our military police members wherever they have to be in a very timely and efficient manner, regardless of how isolated that location may be, because wherever the military is, the military police are expected to be able to be there and respond to the needs of the CAF in that area.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
If the bill were passed, it would remove the authority of officers to investigate sexual offence cases. That's one of the major aspects.
What steps have been taken or are likely to be taken to prevent hierarchical pressure within units?
