National Defence Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

All of you mentioned something about reprisal and that there are probably many cases that don't get reported. We've heard that. We heard in previous testimony that probably even 80% of cases don't get reported. When people do come forward and report it, there's retaliation, as you mentioned, Ms. Smith. There's sidelining of careers. You're pushed out.

We're trying to, first of all, provide justice and supports to victims, prevent this from happening but also build back trust in the system.

I have children serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. When I hear stories like yours, I can imagine how other family members feel when their child decides or their family member says, "I want to serve my country". There's a fear that something will happen to them or worse, as you've all mentioned, that they'll be failed by the system. As you mentioned, Ms. Vanderveer, they're almost revictimized. The process of going through the reporting and the investigation is just as traumatic as the assault.

With respect to this bill, is there something you would like to recommend to us? I probably don't have a ton of time, but if ever there's something you want to also submit to this committee as recommendations, I would urge you to do so through the clerk, because this is going to be very helpful for us.

I'd like to just open it up to Ms. Smith and Ms. Vanderveer, if there's anything you'd like to add.

[Rachelle Smith]

The ultimate prevention is accountability. There are so many movements where...there are classes for new service members about boundaries, psychology and unlawful orders. You can teach all you want but, if there are no consequences, if there's no real justice, if there are people in leadership who have gotten away with crimes, the culture is created.

I often say that we all learn in basic training that there's one thing every single military person knows and all of their family members know: Don't walk on the grass.

Why are human lives not as important as grass?

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Smith.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have up to six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today. I also thank them for their testimony.

I'll start with you, Ms. Jaszberenyi. We're from the same city.

Your testimony was very poignant and very touching. Your experience shows that the military police accepted the initial version, that is, the chain of command's version, before even talking to you. If you think about it, that's huge.

That's my understanding.

Is that correct?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

I didn't hear the last part of your question.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

During your testimony, you said that the military police retained the high command's version before even hearing yours and before you could even comment.

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

Yes, that's right.

I'd like to read something. It's in English.

After an ATIP, the COC of the RMC school stated that the action taken on my sexual assault case was “discussed with NIS to ensure that investigation was closed”.

As you can see, there were discussions between the chain of command and military police. You can access some of them by making an access to information and privacy, or ATIP, request.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

The bill before us is full of good intentions. We are here to gather testimony in order to improve it and make it even stronger.

Your testimony wasn't even heard before they made a decision.

How do you think we could avoid this type of situation?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

I'm going to read what I wrote.

Minister McGuinty stated that there was no cover-up or criminal behaviour. All I experienced was a cover-up and interference, which questions this. I was dismissed without warning, with no AR, signed on my behalf in seven places. I asked to work in intelligence until 65, but my career vanished and I'm unemployed without any VAC.

Justice Arbour, on page 33, said, “In my view, the continued hostile environment and mistreatment of many female cadets in itself justifies an in-depth examination of the future of military training”.

I asked Parliament to look at the details of my experience, as there is an overlap with proof. Mr. Fowler stated not seeing an overlap. I had this overlap of JAG with NIS and COC, and my witness was linked to my engineering school and later lost his life. As I said, the case was discussed with the COC and JAG, and it was ensured that the investigation was closed.

My case and I were studied in person by JAG lawyers at a Timmies six days after my rape and on a civil shooting range between JAG, a club member and a civilian lawyer.

A warrant, who dealt with both victims and happened to be the Crown's witness, claiming he knew nothing of my case, is also a complete overlap. A known lawyer, recommended by a support group, called NIS—this is another lawyer—lied about the information and then proceeded to threaten me, telling me to be very careful in what I say and do from now on.

Lawyers, some with CD titles, took my info and money and then said that it was a conflict or a conflict of interest, or that they were unfamiliar with military law. Where do victims find lawyers as their documents disappear? CAF also seems to be using retired and active members to stifle victims. Some have spoken before your committee.

The RMP's decision of insufficient proof was the reason given to NIS, even though the video interview of the accused showed his admission. The abuse of power, JAG ignoring the previous victim, his admission, my STD and tampering with evidence is against the standards of a representative of our government. This is alarming, and we need accountability.

I hope that answers your question.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Yes, it does.

I would like to dig deeper.

In your case, we know that the Military Police Complaints Commission of Canada did not have access to the file that was transmitted by the military police to the civilian prosecutor.

Bill C‑11 provides for a transfer of powers. They want to prevent the military police from investigating. The investigation is transferred to civilian authorities. However, the bill does not create any mechanisms requiring the military police to provide access to past or current notes, reports and decisions.

Should we amend Bill C‑11 to ensure an automatic right of access to relevant records?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

To answer your question about the military police, I would say that it doesn't change much, because they're the first to show up to the scene of a crime. In my case, a lot of things have disappeared. I can tell you that much.

I don't know how much time you have left, but I would like to read the following.

If Bill C‑11 is passed, I would suggest recommendations based on my experience, which shows an overlap, and a new system may not be a full resolution. As three former justices' recommendations are under way or in spirit, as Professor MacKenzie stated, as victims, we lost trust in the system. The government should also be mindful of the system whereby the DOJ is trying to redact another victim from my case. Giving the image that I alone reported is only harming the public. Pushing for an inspector general sounds like a system is already in place with a JAG-like person, as mentioned in a previous meeting. I've had this JAG-like interference already, so I would like to see what is proposed.

Bill C‑11 still leaves MPs to be first on the scene with the evidence before police arrive, as Minister McGinty mentioned. It will also not eliminate SA, only the evidence, as in my case. We were worried about proposed sections 70.1 and 70.2, I believe. However, after Bill C‑77, Bill C‑66 and now Bill C‑11, it is the duty of the government to make proper legislative changes and to re-examine human rights. More support groups are unnecessary. Please take care of the crimes and remove those who were influenced. A change of policies and personnel is needed, with better recruitment, screening and training; enhanced security; and reduced retaliation with major accountability.

Professor MacKenzie stated that it is merely a “piece of the puzzle”, since she mentioned victims like me who have gone through a long, arduous court process with the accused back on base working.

If you put a system in place, as you noted, where victims are failed, past errors will be repeated. Angry families and groups may challenge you, since SAs and suicides are rising. With social media out of control, we need to keep the peace. As someone who worked in intelligence, I say that you need to act as victims rise and justice unbalances. The root of the problem needs to be dealt with, and preventative measures need to be put in place by removing those who covered up these crimes.

Most victim services leave victims rightfully believing that the system is bent in favour of protecting the accused and the system, and not in aiding us and protecting the public from harm, which Justice Arbour also referred to. She also stated that “external input should be a common thread throughout all CAF activities impacted by the issue of sexual misconduct.”

In my opinion, the overlap was evident. The abuse of power by those above, especially on the young, is the reason my experience as an older rape victim is unique. Sexual assault and other criminal offences of a sexual nature are now being referred to civilian authorities, yet my case clearly shows tampering to me. It feels like a smokescreen to prevent victims from further reporting, even with a known predator on base, trying to shame me in court and in public. With the overlap I experienced, has the justice system dropped the scales of justice?

I hope that answers all of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you. I appreciate your response.

I am sensitive to time. I'm not going to cut anybody off, but I do ask you to try to be mindful of the time.

Mr. Kibble, you have up to five minutes.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the panel for their service. I commend your courage for coming here to help us work towards a solution, specifically in Bill C‑11. I respect that it's a very sensitive topic, so if you're uncomfortable proceeding with my questions, just please let me know. However, I look forward to your answers.

Ms. Smith, I appreciate your talking about accountability. We've also heard from other people who have also said that culture change is part of the solution.

You said that you were in the U.S. military. Is that correct?

[Rachelle Smith]

Yes.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Have you served in the Canadian Forces?

[Rachelle Smith]

No.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Are you familiar with the Canadian Forces' justice system?

[Rachelle Smith]

No. It's similar, but I've seen that there's less infrastructure for survivors than we have in the U.S.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's fair. Okay. So, you do have some familiarity. Thank you.

I want to clarify, as well, that when we're using the acronym MP, in your cases that refers to military police and not members of Parliament. I just want to clarify that as we're going forward, and I appreciate that there are a lot of acronyms that are used.

Ms. Vanderveer, you said that you've worked with numerous survivors.

[Heather Vanderveer]

That is correct.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In your work with them, have you felt that those survivors—or in your own experience as well—would want a choice between either a civilian or a military prosecution?

[Heather Vanderveer]

Absolutely. That's what I have heard: that they would like a choice. However, a concern with going to the civilian courts—which I mentioned in my testimony—is this: How are these judges trained? This is because so many of them don't understand the complexities of the military. It's, you know, very challenging when they're trying to understand why somebody would go off with another uniformed member. Why could they just not walk away? You obviously can't walk away after being raped if you're aboard a ship. So, these are the things that.... How do we get the civilian courts to understand these complexities while trying to solve these and bring justice to these cases?

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

All of the witnesses have mentioned cover-ups of information or suppression of information. Do you feel that Bill C-11 should have specific regulations for the accountable transfer of evidence from military to civilian police?

[Heather Vanderveer]

Absolutely. One of my concerns is that there would be such a delay. We've seen within the military system that things move at a glacial speed sometimes when handing over documents, and there are always delays. Yes, it needs to be handed over quickly and efficiently to prevent people from hanging in limbo.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

In your case, were you aware that there was a choice between prosecuting these either through military or civilian channels? I'll open that up to all the panellists.