National Defence Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Rachelle Smith]

The first one happened while I was a military dependant with a doctor. That was 2001, and I was 12. Then it happened again in 2012 as a senior in college in ROTC and then repeatedly in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2017. I got out of the military in 2015. Then there was a very close one out of VA Hospital at the end of 2022.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's terrible. I don't even know how to respond to that. It was that systemic.

All of you are aware of the Madam Justice Deschamps, Madam Justice Arbour and Mr. Justice Fish reports. Were any of you asked for testimony or interviewed by any of those justices?

[Paula MacDonald]

Arbour....

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Did she interview you?

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Were any of the others interviewed?

[A voice]

No.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I still maintain, Mr. Chair, that we should have Justices Deschamps and Arbour appear at committee so that we can talk about their previous reports and whether they have any extra recommendations they wish to make at this point in time.

Ms. Vanderveer, you said that Bill C-11 is going to create more bureaucratic ping-pong. I like that expression. Do you see that Bill C-11 is just an attempt by CAF leadership to pass the buck and now push this all off onto the provincial civilian system using provincial courts and provincial prosecutors, and then they can just wash their hands of it?

[Heather Vanderveer]

Yes, that's how I feel.

The few people who I've spoken with and the people who I work with feel it's just shifting the blame. Many are not against the civilian court system, but, again, how do we educate these judges to take on these cases?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

As we just heard from Mr. Anderson, Ombudsman Roebuck just did his report, and 3,000 cases were looked at. As he said, police officers and Crown attorneys regularly caution survivors against reporting. You had the Jordan framework as laid out by the Supreme Court of Canada that justice delayed is justice denied, and if you can't do it within 24 months, it's out, so the accused are walking away scot-free.

You mentioned that justices provincially aren't trained about how the military operates and how the accused and victims may end up on the same training exercise as long as they're still on base.

How can we deal with the lack of understanding of how the Canadian Armed Forces work when the judges, the prosecutors and the defenders may not fully understand and appreciate the way the Canadian Armed Forces actually operate?

[Heather Vanderveer]

If they're going to shift to the civilian courts, there needs to be some sort of education for the judges and for the prosecutors. They can't compare it to civilian sexual assaults and misconduct because our world is very different from the civilian world. We all know that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ms. Jaszberenyi, you mentioned that you're concerned about proposed sections 70.1 and 70.2 as drafted in Bill C-11.

There's also proposed subsection 70.2(4), where there is the transfer of evidence from military police and the national investigation service to civilian authorities, but there's no timeline in there.

Do you believe the chain of command could still interfere with the transfer of evidence to the civilian court and that unreasonable delays may cause the Jordan framework to kick in and cause cases to be stayed or thrown out?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

Yes, I believe that the chain of command, in my case, caused even more delays. Like I said, my file would get thinner and thinner.

I would also like to add to that the SMSRC was spoken about a lot, and I believe the last time it was called the “Cadillac” for victims. Well, for me, that Cadillac crashed. They told me to call the ombudsman, and then the ombudsman said that he only deals with admin issues and he refunded my aid. Then I was told to contact the CCMS, and after two long meetings he just told me, “Good luck.”

The other thing I would like to touch upon is the data collection, because most of the hurdles that they cause with victims are only to extract information. The reason the information is extracted is for their own benefit. That's all I experienced. I can't speak for other people, but I'm speaking on my behalf.

As well, with my case, what was—

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Jaszberenyi.

I'm going to give Mr. Watchorn some time. He may continue with that testimony.

Mr. Watchorn, go ahead.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being with us this morning to share your experience. I find you extremely courageous to come and help us with our study to improve Bill C‑11.

Ms. Jaszberenyi, I'd like to give you the opportunity to provide some final remarks, if you wish.

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

Thank you, Mr. Watchorn.

I'd just like to add a few comments.

Five letters were written to me and they said they were unable to obtain information and they would have to apply to Federal Court since their work was compromised by CAF, even though the defence minister signed off on the MPCC questioning why the accused was not charged.

We have all these hurdles if you put this into place, and I'm trying to explain exactly from my story what they were.

Go ahead, if you had a question.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

That's very kind.

Today we're addressing the issue of trust. First, you need to be sure that you are believed. Then you need to trust that the process that will be put in place will handle your case properly.

As Madam Justice Arbour said, Bill C‑11 suggests that there is a crisis of confidence within the Canadian Armed Forces. This crisis has to do with the way sexual abuse cases are handled.

Ms. MacDonald, witnesses often tell us that they fear there will be repercussions to their career if they report their case in the military system.

Do you trust the civilian justice system more than the military justice system?

[Paula MacDonald]

The big issue I see is that the military system uses the resources that it has within the judicial system to punish the victim. By transferring it away from them, then that removes a tool that they have to interrogate, harass and belittle you for reporting or telling the truth. Yes, the civilian system has issues. The military system has issues. I see it as very difficult in terms of fixing the system where we see the independence of the actors isn't there. It's probably a cultural issue where they say military police were supposed to be separated during the Somalia affair. That didn't happen. I think that it needs to be transferred because it needs to remove the ability to harm victims.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Ms. Jaszberenyi, what are your comments on the same question?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

As Professor MacKenzie was saying, it's just one piece of the puzzle. In other words, a lot of things have to be done differently.

I would also like to leave that General Carignan stated that CAF will follow cases and make sure our careers will be intact. CAF followed my story, as I see in my ATIPs, and my career disappeared, and I was released with no VAC but they kept the predator employed among the soldiers. For over a year, I didn't receive my DND pension because my file was lost. I received a letter months after my release stating I was disabled and unfit for work and should have been released as such, but they released me using my age instead, stating the decision could not be changed. Other avenues were mentioned, which I tried as well, but they were denied.

Most officials have not walked in our boots, so it's essential for victims to be part of the decision-making to show you where the system really is lacking. Gatekeepers are taking and giving away our information. Hard-working military are stifled within CAF by those who mishandle things, create corruption and are rewarded and promoted. When my career was held back as an example, I told my master corporal, I don't feel trained. He replied, I would have helped more if I didn't get written up for trying.

The cycle needs to stop because it doesn't equate with the military ethos. I also wanted to add to this that for victims like me we have lost a lot of trust in the system. I guess we need to see what will be proposed. The trust is going to be a long-term process.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Vanderveer, I'd like to make a comment before you answer the same question.

You said you were concerned that the civilian justice system wouldn't be able to understand the reality of the military.

I would say that specialized courts are being set up, as is the case in Quebec, where there is talk of a court dealing specifically with sexual abuse. Judges and prosecutors are trained to handle these particular cases.

Do you think it would be beneficial for sexual abuse cases to be handled by a specialized court, such as the one Quebec is currently setting up?

[Heather Vanderveer]

Yes, I think it would be in the best interests to send survivors to courts that are specifically trained to deal with sexual assault and sexual misconduct. Then to answer your question over a lack of trust, the women, who I mostly work with, by the time they get to me have zero trust in the military system and in Veterans Affairs. And even in trying to get them to an OSI clinic...they are not believed.

I had one woman where all we had to say to her was that we believed her. She cried in our office for three hours because that was the first time someone had actually believed her and she had been out of the military for about 12 years and she had never heard that before in her life.

It's very hard to gain the trust of people to ask, “Can you put in a VAC claim, can we take you to peer support, what is it you need?” Even trying to present them a quilt of valour.... They just don't even think that they're worthy of that because the trust has been broken within the system. Again, it's hard because you can't get them to trust the civilian system either at that point because they have just been so beaten down by the systems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. MacDonald, you're a social worker or have a degree in the field, if I'm not mistaken. If there is anyone who understands mental health issues in all areas of work, it's you. You know that it all interplays.

However, you also shared with us the concern that this is often a factor used to harm victims. We could say that this person has problems and that their testimony is probably false or influenced by false perceptions.

Knowing that mental health issues really exist and are founded, how can we act on them?

You are in a better position than anyone else here to talk about that.

How can we ensure that mental health issues aren't used as an excuse to dismiss victims?

[Paula MacDonald]

I suffer with post-traumatic stress disorder from what happened to me. I am also a clinical social worker who continues to work part time and treat such mental health issues as PTSD. Let's say the person says, “Oh, you have mental health issues, because you're having a response where you're telling me to stop or you're crying because I just touched you inappropriately.” We need to label that for what it is: It's a diversion tactic that's actually a human rights violation. You're not allowed to discriminate against me because I'm crying or whatever. You need to accommodate me and go from there.