Evidence of meeting #31 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rangers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Yes. We're looking at ways to improve so that indigenous people want to join. If we look at the more modern stories, are those a tool that we could use so things are more positive as we continue to improve culture?
Historian, Indigenous Military History, Canadian War Museum
Thank you for the question.
If there's one thing I've learned from interviewing veterans and watching or reading interviews with a variety of different veterans, it's that experiences can be very individual. One experience, obviously, can't represent an entire group. One person can't represent an entire group. However, as you mentioned and as I said, there are success stories. One of the veterans I spoke with about the Afghanistan war was especially speaking about being cared for medically for injuries after his service.
At the Canadian War Museum, a colleague of mine, Dr. Michael Petrou, has been collecting oral histories from veterans—and not just indigenous veterans but all sorts of different veterans, including francophone and indigenous veterans—that speak to their experiences not only about service but about what life was like after the uniform came off and they became a veteran. That project is called “In Their Own Voices”. A really big part of that is letting those veterans speak for themselves in a lot of cases. At the museum, we have an oral history project, and we're collecting oral histories so we can have first-hand accounts.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you. I'd need another 30 to 40 minutes for all of my questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
I know. We're going to have another round, so we'll be able to get back to you.
Liberal
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here. The discussions today were very interesting. I think we have focused quite a bit on the Canadian Rangers.
I'd like to mention something as an ex-mayor. When a municipality requests assistance, the request is normally forwarded to the province. The province can then turn to the federal government for assistance from the Canadian Armed Forces. That makes it important to maintain relationships with partners with that in mind.
Mr. Kikkert, I'd like to follow up on the questions that my colleague Mr. Kibble asked.
I think that training in the north could be done bidirectionally. We can train the Canadian Rangers and the people on site, but indigenous communities could also train people who are unfamiliar with working in the north on how to do it effectively. Can you tell us how the training could work bidirectionally?
Associate Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University
That is a great question. That's something my colleague Professor Lackenbauer has written a lot about.
From a training perspective, acknowledging the skill set that the rangers bring to the table, as they train southern-based military units on how to move and function in northern terrain, a role they've been playing for decades, and a critical one.... When the military is on exercises, when they're doing their training in Resolute or wherever it's going to be, often rangers are teaching them how to move and how to not just survive but thrive on the land. That training is ongoing.
From a bidirectional perspective, what the CAF can do to facilitate training opportunities for the rangers is highlight some of their specific skill sets—things like how to most effectively evacuate a community and how to participate in wellness checks. In particular, things like wilderness first aid and advanced first aid are very difficult skills for a lot of northerners to get trained on. The opportunities are few and far between. Very few organizations are bringing consistent training and these kinds of higher-level emergency response skills. That may not always be done through the CAF, but the CAF could certainly facilitate more of that kind of training, which will directly benefit the rangers and also their broader communities.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Professor Lackenbauer, you have written about this. Can you share your perspective?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in the Study of the Canadian North, Trent University
Thank you, Mr. Watchorn.
Yes, gladly.
As Dr. Kikkert just said, there is some of this going on already. First of all, it starts with a shift in mindset for southern-based units. Conducting cold weather operation training is not the same as preparing for northern operations. The Arctic is a geographic region. Inuit Nunangat is a homeland. You can prepare on southern bases to learn how to fire up your Coleman and set up your army tent, but at the end of the day, you need to be learning ideally from people from the area in which you're going to be operating, so more opportunities for Canadian Rangers to be provided a trip south to do the work-up training in support of the southern units that are going to be deployed in the north would be very much welcomed. Rangers certainly embrace these roles when these opportunities are provided.
At the end of the day, nothing replaces experience on the ground, and for this multidirectional learning to go on, it means increasing not necessarily the scale or size but the frequency and predictability of northern operations and training activities across the Canadian Armed Forces. At the end of the day, you're going to learn more, and the multidirectional learning is going to occur through and be facilitated by relationship building and more familiarity.
Historically, we have a very episodic interest in Arctic sovereignty and security issues, which leads us to do a surge of activity and then to let that fall off. What I hope we're going to be investing in going forward is more continuous relationship building and more opportunities for, as you said, that sharing.
I've certainly heard from many rangers, particularly elders, over the years that over time, they miss some of the challenging training they were being provided by ranger instructors, say, 15 or 20 years ago. They value the opportunity to be learning from these combat arms, the non-commissioned officers coming up as instructors. As much as they teach the instructors, they're also learning from them. The more opportunities we get for this face-to-face interaction, the better off we all are.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Thank you very much.
I think I mentioned last week that we heard from members of the Canadian Armed Forces who had appeared at one of our previous meetings and who told us that the technical specifications of the equipment we buy are often set by people who don't have experience in the north.
Do you think that people with truly substantial experience with northern operations can influence the equipment or its technical specifications?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in the Study of the Canadian North, Trent University
It's another fantastic question.
I've been fortunate over the last couple of months to be involved in Operation Nanook-Nunalivut on three different stretches of what has been an epic Canadian Armed Forces operation led by rangers, going from Inuvik in the western Arctic across the Arctic Ocean coast, then turning, doing a pivot, and going down the Kivalliq coast and western Hudson Bay, and ending up in Churchill. Along the way, rangers were very much involved in identifying equipment that would be fit to purpose for this particular activity. They've derived a lot of lessons observed that hopefully will be translated into lessons learned about how to conduct agile operations by a small group.
When I was in Cambridge Bay, Ikaluktutiak, in the Kitikmeot region, I was very pleased to see university professors and people from Defence Research and Development Canada, DRDC, testing some new systems, testing different types of equipment and bringing them to the north, working with rangers to ground truth whether they are actually appropriate.
I definitely see opportunities going forward for the rangers and other northern experts based in the north to be more heavily involved in the process of identifying what is needed and of testing and trialling the different proposed solutions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you, Professor. I appreciate your enthusiasm and passion, and those of all witnesses, with regard to what's happening here today.
Thank you, Mr. Watchorn.
Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, we'll go over to you for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Scoppio, can you talk a bit about the summer programs for indigenous people? You have already said that they aren't very well administered, or at least not as well administered as the Bold Eagle program, which you think should serve as a kind of model in this area. Could you tell us a bit more about that?
Professor Emerita of Defence Studies, Royal Military College of Cananda, As an Individual
As I said before, it's important to first admit that these are good programs, which also serve to attract indigenous youth to the Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF.
The programs are successful just because they already exist. However, there are challenges. One of those challenges, which is the same for all the various programs, is the inability to fill all the positions available for each program. There's also difficulty retaining participants once they have completed the programs.
We talked about the fact that indigenous people who are in the CAF are also experiencing certain challenges. I think that the young people who complete these programs face the same challenges. In particular, there are cultural problems that persist, which creates barriers for young people who want to continue in the CAF.
I think a study should really be conducted to examine all the programs and look at the successes, challenges, gaps and areas for improvement for each program.
As I said earlier, there's a program missing for the Royal Canadian Air Force. Adding such a program would be a way to attract people, because some participants will join the CAF after completing their programs. That's for sure.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
As you have already mentioned, why is the Bold Eagle program a model in this regard, one whose operations other programs should emulate?
Professor Emerita of Defence Studies, Royal Military College of Cananda, As an Individual
Bold Eagle was the first program, and it's also the most well known. That means it did serve as a model for the other programs created afterward. That's why I brought it up.
As we have already discussed, we wondered whether we were doing enough to make indigenous youth in the communities aware of these programs. Certainly, if a program has been around for years, it's more well known. People might say, for example, that one of their uncles took part in it. That means people will be familiar with that program for life.
I should also point out that not all indigenous people live in indigenous communities. In addition, because of the effects of colonialism, many indigenous young people have lost their culture and language. That raises the question of whether the armed forces could be agents of reconciliation in this regard.
Rather than having separate programs—and that's still a very good thing that should continue and even expand—perhaps more elements related to indigenous youth culture should be incorporated so that indigenous youth feel safe and included.
I would like to add something else, which isn't really part of your question.
When we talk about the north, we have to understand that the situation there is still unique and that there are growing interests, such as those of China or Russia. The strength of the Rangers should be increased, in the knowledge that not all of them are indigenous. There's still a significant indigenous presence. It's also important for Canada's security in the north.
I think we have touched on that. However, I think that, in general, having a greater presence of indigenous people in the CAF would be very important for the CAF, but also for Canada.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you so much.
I'm going now to Ms. Gallant.
You have whatever time you want, it seems. Five minutes is the preferable amount, though.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, but I won't take it all.
Dr. Lackenbauer, is there an American equivalent of the rangers?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in the Study of the Canadian North, Trent University
Thanks, Ms. Gallant. That's an excellent question.
No, there is not. Historically, one can look to examples where there were forms of differentiated military service for Alaskans, which resembled the rangers. What the Americans did, beginning in the 1950s and early 1960s, was move towards a model where their “Tundra Army”, as they were called—their Alaskan rangers, to draw that connection—was modelled after the National Guard, like our primary reserves. Some of them then retooled to be what is equivalent to our regular force unit.
For the last 15 or 20 years, I've been approached by various Alaskan defence experts, and even by Senator Murkowski herself, to provide briefings on what a ranger model might look like, in order to inspire something similar in Alaska among the Alaskan native communities. We've also had overtures in Canada from Greenland, the Kingdom of Denmark, and the Sami, who are looking at the Canadian Rangers as a potential model to inspire things in their countries, because they don't have a form of service similar to what we have here.
It will never be a cut-and-paste solution, but it is one that I think speaks volumes to the international recognition and respect the rangers have earned.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Is there any other country—even Russia—that has a similar reserve unit?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in the Study of the Canadian North, Trent University
Russia definitely does not. There are others. There is nothing quite the same. I use the word “unique” in a very literal sense. I think this is a one-of-a-kind Canadian solution.
You could look at NORFORCE, in Australia, which in some respects resembles the rangers. It puts a priority on incorporating the indigenous populations of Australia.
There is nothing quite like the rangers out there. I know it sounds like I'm being overly nationalistic in celebrating this great Canadian story, but in this case I think it really is.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Are rangers ever deployed with army regiments when there's an exercise or a mission in the Arctic region outside Canada?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in the Study of the Canadian North, Trent University
No. That's outside of the rangers' role, missions and tasks.
In the case of a general war, the Minister of National Defence, the Crown, could activate different forms of service, but certainly the intention for the rangers is to be serving within their homeland and within Canada. They are definitely considered a defence-of-Canada capability.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
The reason I ask is that there was a fairly recent Arctic exercise. I believe it was Global Resolve. There were 60 soldiers affected, but 30 suffered severe cold injuries. There was no one—no rangers and no American version of the rangers—to guide them when they got off the plane and had to trek through the Arctic for the first time.