National Defence Committee on April 29th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 2, 2025, the committee is meeting to complete the original study of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces contaminated sites, which began the previous session.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask participants to consult the guidelines on the table. These measures are to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of the interpreters. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. For interpretation, use the earpiece and select the appropriate language channel. Again, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have Sarah Perreault, mayor, City of Shannon; and Serge Villandré, chief administrative officer, City of Terrebonne.

We'll start with opening remarks, and I'll pass it over to the mayor to please proceed.

[Sarah Perreault, Mayoress, City of Shannon]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin, I want to say I was shocked to learn the City of Shannon was being summoned to appear before the committee to talk about the contamination it's been dealing with for 20 years. The only reason people hear about this situation is because there's a monitoring committee, among other things, but it's still surprising. The committee wants to hear from people about contaminated sites, and I have a lot of questions about that objective. Is it to improve communications or to ensure we can speed up the processes?

Shannon experienced a massive trichloroethylene, or TCE, contamination exactly 26 years ago. I'd say that's one of the great contaminations to happen in Canada. Actually, 26 years ago, the city was informed of a major contamination. The federal government didn't detect it, at least it didn't send the contamination notice; the provincial government did. The Direction de santé publique de la Capitale nationale conducted a water analysis in many Shannon residences. I assume provincial government representatives suspected the contamination at the time. I don't want to ascribe motives to anyone in this case, but the notice came from the Quebec government. You can imagine the shock and horror in the city, because everyone had artesian wells. I can attest to that, because I was living in Shannon at the time. I became an MPP a few years later. This is an issue I am very familiar with, that's why I took the time to tell you a bit of the story.

That contamination is extremely serious. I'll spare you the details, but obviously, people in the city were notified immediately and everyone stopped drinking the water. The federal government partnered with the Direction de santé publique du Québec to implement mitigation processes while we waited for a solution. The solution was to set up a water system, which cost the federal government nearly $35 million. It paid for everything. It also set up a monitoring committee, which still exists. Coincidentally, I received a reminder today that I'm to appear before the monitoring committee on TCE contamination on June 2.

All this has put a damper on the relationship between the federal government and the City of Shannon. It fuelled concerns and shattered relationships that were already weak. I'd like to remind everyone that in 1914, Shannon wasn't a city. Large parts of the territory were expropriated to welcome 60,000 to 70,000 residents. Today, Shannon has barely 10,000 residents.

All that to say things were done after the contamination, but Shannon is still closely associated with it. When you talk about Shannon, you talk about TCE. That's still the reaction of those who come and settle in our region.

Twenty-six years later, the ground is still contaminated.

As I said earlier, there's a monitoring committee. This large committee brings together 40 to 50 individuals from various backgrounds, including environmental groups, representatives of National Defence and the Quebec government, as well as a citizens' group. I'll spare you the number of experts that sit on this committee. Meetings are often cancelled. I've been mayor for four years, and I've attended only four or five meetings. There should be two a year. There will be one on June 2. The previous one, which was supposed to take place last fall, was cancelled.

All that to say despite this large committee and lots of research, the ground is still contaminated. I'm really trying to understand where we're headed. Is it possible to decontaminate the ground in Shannon and the region? TCE concentrations are high. The water flows to the river. I'll spare you the details, but the monitoring committee wasn't set up yesterday. Is continuing the research on decontamination 26 years later just a way to ease people's conscience? Is decontamination really possible? I honestly wonder. I know a lot of money has been invested.

I also want to talk about our relationship with National Defence. I'd like to take advantage of this opportunity to say I'm not as prepared as an organization of 30,000 or 40,000 people would be. I'm mayor of a small town of 7,000 residents. I don't have a lot of employees.

So I [Technical difficulty—Editor]. It's difficult for cities like ours to work with national defence. Its hierarchy is heavy. It's not agile. We're the ones responsible for its water and sewer systems, among other things. It's a very difficult situation, even though the representatives, like the commander—they change every two years—are always very friendly.

However, it's still a difficult relationship when it comes to this file. There's also an issue with unexploded ammunition on land adjacent to Shannon. As a result, areas where people used to walk 15 or 20 years ago are off limits. Today, those areas are being used by dirt bikes and ATVs. They're near residences, and we have no control over them. People are complaining. National Defence has closed off those areas, but it can't ensure a complete closure, because it's too complicated to supervise. These are big areas.

All that to say, today, in 2026, the major issues we have with national defence have nothing to do with our relationship. They're more related to hierarchy or agility. We have big issues with national defence. It's going to build 1,100 housing units, and we weren't really informed. There are a lot of issues.

I've set the table. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Perreault.

Thank you for your comments.

We'll go, next, to Serge Villandré for five minutes.

[Serge Villandré, Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the City of Terrebonne, I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to appear as part of your study on contaminated sites.

Our presentation will focus more specifically on the former Saint-Maurice test shooting range, a vast federal land located within the boundaries of the City of Terrebonne.

It covers 6.5 square kilometres, making it one of the largest undeveloped pieces of land in the greater Montreal area.

National defence used the land for ammunition testing and training until 1967, and there has been no military activity there since. In 2014, the federal government classified the site as surplus.

Despite this decades-old decommissioning, the site is still contaminated, and its effects are still being felt.

This territory represents an exceptional natural heritage site. It's made up largely of wetlands, peatlands and mature forests, and is home to nearly two dozen special-status flora and fauna species. It plays an important role as a biodiversity reservoir and carbon sink.

The City of Terrebonne fully recognizes this ecological value and supports efforts to protect the site in the long term, possibly as a natural protected area, with controlled public access.

However, let's be honest: it's impossible to protect the site in the long term or to let the community use it without decontaminating it first. As long as there are unexploded ammunitions in the ground, this territory remains off limits, dangerous and unusable for both conservation and community needs, and the municipality's needs are real and urgent.

For the City of Terrebonne, the challenges are real. The site's contamination prevents us from building schools needed to serve the surrounding communities dealing with strong population growth. I'm also thinking of opening up and optimizing an industrial park, which is essential for economic development and job creation. Building a U-turn facility at the end of Saint-Roch Street is a major challenge for citizens' mobility. More broadly, we need consistent land development planning for the construction of at least five properties given the scarcity of land available.

Terrebonne intends to ask the federal government to decontaminate the land and make it available to meet the needs of its residents.

These needs fall under normal municipal and provincial responsibilities, but they remain unmet because of contamination caused by the federal government.

A tangible example is the Urbanova interchange project, which crosses over Highway 640. It perfectly illustrates this reality.

This structuring project carried out by the City of Terrebonne, in co-operation with Quebec's ministère des Transports et de la Mobilité durable, requires work on part of the former Saint-Maurice shooting range.

However, during the preliminary work, unexploded ammunitions were discovered, despite national defence classifying the risk as very low after an initial assessment. This discovery mandated specialized decontamination, including the detection, safe excavation and disposal of these historic ammunitions.

The City of Terrebonne had to award a $1.7 million contract for a safe decontamination of the area. The interchange project is now almost two years behind schedule because of this discovery.

As a result, City of Terrebonne taxpayers will have to bear the costs of a contamination inherited from federal military activities.

Our message to the committee is simple and respectful, but firm. The federal government must assume responsibility for decontaminating these lands. It must compensate the City of Terrebonne for the $1.7 million spent to allow the construction of an interchange essential to the community's development. Municipalities and citizens cannot and must not bear the financial and operational burden of decontamination alone. Full decontamination, planned and funded by the federal government, is an essential condition for any land transfer, any real environmental protection and any safe public use.

Finally, the Saint-Maurice range represents both a legacy of the past, a real obstacle and a major opportunity for the future, provided the responsibilities are clearly assumed.

The City of Terrebonne wants to be a constructive partner. However, to meet its housing and economic development needs, the federal government must play its full role.

Thank you for your attention. We look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Villandré.

We're going to begin our first round of six minutes with you, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Villandré, thank you for taking the time to do this.

Ms. Perreault, thank you for joining us.

I understand you were surprised to be invited to appear before the committee, but we'll take this opportunity to check the status of the relationship between National Defence and the City of Shannon. I'll start with the contamination file, because I know that's a big responsibility on your shoulders.

If I understand correctly, the contamination was discovered 26 years ago, and a whole process was put in place after that. I've met with citizens' committees on a number of occasions. They made representations, they fought and they got the co-operation of the City of Shannon. However, I know a legal decision was rendered allowing for the expansion of a class action lawsuit. Beyond compensating citizens for the contamination, I'd like to know what the current state of affairs is.

Could you tell us what the situation is?

Can we say the water contamination in Shannon is over and citizens can now safely drink the water?

[Sarah Perreault]

Thank you for your question.

Actually, I can only answer with some reservation, because I'm not an expert.

For those who don't know the city, it's divided into a southern part and a northern part. There were plumes of contaminants throughout the southern part of the city. What we know is the plumes were in the southern part in particular, and the water system was essentially built in that area. Part of the system is also in the northern part of the city.

Properties with wells are located very far from the plumes of contaminants.

The wells have been sealed, so no one drinks that water. Trichloroethylene is a heavy metal, and tends to fall to the bottom of the water table. This means you can't dig in the water table, otherwise the TCE becomes volatile.

To answer your question, no one drinks the contaminated water from Shannon.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

This situation has a negative impact on land value, on life in Shannon and on you, as mayor and city administrator, doesn't it?

[Sarah Perreault]

Actually, it no longer has an impact on land value. However, 26 years later, those who contact the city still talk about this. They're still worried about TCE, but we reassure them.

There are no more concerns about land value. On the contrary, land is selling well. As you know, it's a beautiful city. I can testify to that.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You're absolutely right, Ms. Perreault.

Do you have a lot of space left in Shannon for development?

We know you share your territory with national defence, but that you have no control over the expropriated land.

Could you tell us about the situation in terms of development opportunities?

A city increases its revenues through property taxes, which are directly related to land availability.

What's the current situation?

[Sarah Perreault]

Thank you for the question.

We still have land to develop, but I think in 15 or 20 years, we'll be landlocked. We're surrounded by land expropriated by national defence, and I think too much was expropriated. The area is huge.

As I said earlier, it's like a scar on the City of Shannon.

We'll end up landlocked, and we'll have problems with development.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Do you have a relationship with the base managers that would allow you to discuss the acquisition of lands being off-loaded by national defence?

[Sarah Perreault]

Like I said earlier, we talk to them.

I heard the city manager for Terrebonne earlier talk about the financial challenges of decontamination. For us, it's the responsibilities negotiated with the military base that are financially challenging.

We have an excellent relationship with them. I can't say our relations are bad, because that's not the case. I have a good relationship with the commander.

All the cities adjacent to national defence land are probably in the same situation we're in. There's a new commander every two years, so our relationship is set to fail. We meet two or three times, and then they move on. I have to work with someone new, so we have to start all over again.

Obviously, they use a lot of land. There's a project to build 1,100 housing units over the next three years, which means the population of Shannon will go from 7,000 residents to 10,000 residents.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

It's being imposed.

Isn't that right?

[Sarah Perreault]

Yes, it's being imposed. I don't get to discuss it with them. I'm informed of the situation, but I have no say in the matter. They aren't asking me for any permits; they're just building. So we don't have that much information, although I think it's more of an organizational issue than an unwillingness.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Can you tell us what the financial impact is? You can't charge tax on land occupied by national defence.

Is there any financial compensation? Is it renewed, adjusted and indexed?

[Sarah Perreault]

Actually, to compensate for national defence's use of the land, and to compensate the City of Shannon, there are what's called “payments in lieu of taxes”. The military base's territory is divided between two cities. There may be a small portion that belongs to Quebec City, but the big moneymaker, as they say, belongs to Saint‑Gabriel‑de‑Valcartier, which derives 50% of its tax revenue from national defence.

All the major buildings, such as headquarters or industrial buildings, are located within the territory of Saint‑Gabriel‑de‑Valcartier. In my town, I wouldn't say the homes are falling into disrepair, but they aren't modern. In terms of property values, I would say there's a gap of more than 7% to 8% between the base's territory and my town. So there's a shortfall.

I would add that, given all the complexities I mentioned earlier, I sometimes wish I knew who to contact to have this reviewed, because it's not fair. The intention is to be fair. However, in reality, this compensation is not.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I hope that national defence is listening to your comments and that the department will reach out to you.

Thank you, Ms. Perreault.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Perreault.

Monsieur Watchorn, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Ms. Perreault.

I share a life experience with you, because I served as mayor of a small municipality of 5,000 residents for 16 years—the municipality of Morin‑Heights. In addition, I work with a former city manager of Shannon, Hugo Lépine. He's very competent. He told me a bit about your experience. So I'd like to ask you a few questions about that.

We know that municipal infrastructure costs a fortune, and we're always looking for ways to fund it. When the settlement was made with the federal government to build your water system, if I understand correctly, 85% of the water mains and streets in Shannon were completely redone.

Is that correct?

[Sarah Perreault]

It may be 85%, but that seems like a lot to me. In fact, a lot of the streets had to be redone because, when we installed the water system, we obviously had to tear up the existing streets. So, 85% seems like a lot to me, but it's not far off, in my opinion.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Okay.

Ultimately, thanks to the settlement, you still have relatively new infrastructure in the urbanized part of town, I imagine.

Is that correct?

[Sarah Perreault]

In the urbanized part of town, yes, I'd say that the streets were redone. However, this was 20, 22 years ago. You understand that they're not in mint condition today. When the water system was installed, we were happy.

I'm not criticizing what's been done. I think everyone was acting in good faith. I don't want to dwell on the past. I'm looking to the future. That's what I want to tell you. I want to tell you that, today, in 2026, we have a good relationship with the military base. That said, my heartfelt plea is that it's hard for a representative of a town of 7,000 residents to have a discussion with the representative of a military base. I'm an instrument of the provincial government. I have discussions with the base, I have to talk with the provincial government, but I'm not equipped to do that. I'm responsible for the base's sewer, water system and infrastructure. I have big things to discuss.

The payments in lieu of taxes are no longer where they should be, because the base has gone down in value. In addition, the way they're calculated is not efficient and, above all, it's unfair. I'm not blaming anyone. That's probably the best way we've found, but today, in 2026, we have to ask ourselves some questions.

I would end by saying this. We need to talk to each other more, because the military base has set up in my town, where there's a project to build 1,100 homes. Has a school been planned for? Has any thought been given to the town's road infrastructure handling all this? There's a lot of traffic.

I'm not saying this in a negative way. On the contrary, what I'm saying is that we're going to collaborate. We're going to be there, but help us help you. That's what I'm saying. That's my heartfelt plea.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

I think that's a great message.

You're right, it's often very complex for municipalities to deal with the provinces and the federal government. They're not used to dealing with the federal government. You're in a unique situation because a base has been set up in your town. However, the majority of mayors don't have the burden, or perhaps the benefit, in some cases, of having a military base in town.

I'd like to talk about the 1,100 housing units to be built on the military base.

What services does the municipality have to provide in order to accommodate these 1,100 additional housing units that are to be built?

[Sarah Perreault]

In 1999, we signed an agreement with the federal government. The City of Shannon acquired national defence's road, water and waste water infrastructure. I'll spare you the technical details. The municipality became responsible for that. Funds were transferred. At the time, in 1999, it worked. Today, we're negotiating with the real estate operations unit to try to review the agreement so that it better reflects the municipality's challenges.

That said, these 1,100 units being built means that within five years, the town will have 1,100 new units, because they will be on my territory. Obviously, national defence is building them, but it doesn't consult me about where they're going to be built. I'm also not consulted on permits or the structures. National defence was spared all of that.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. I'm ready to see the municipality grow. I'm ready to take on this responsibility, and I see it as a positive thing. However, we need to talk to each other. There have to be committees.

Currently, traffic is already a problem on the Route de la Bravoure. I have one exit, but access to the military base has already been restricted. I understand that there are security-related imperatives, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that, except that, since every person has to show identification, you can imagine how long the lineup is to get into the base in the morning. That creates bottlenecks. So, if we add 1,100 housing units, you understand the impact that will have.

There are three schools, including two elementary schools, one English-language and one French-language. In 2025, I was told that the French-language school would probably be over capacity by 2026. Now, I'm told that 1,100 housing units are coming. Have I discussed this with national defence so that we can meet these children's needs? I don't want to take children out of Shannon and send them to another school. Do you understand? That's a problem.

I'm not negative, on the contrary. However, have we planned for all that?