Evidence of meeting #34 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was land.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne
We have no access to the data. We have no way of knowing what's what, so we trust the people at national defence because they're the experts on this. We trust the information they give us.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
In 2023, three years ago, the petition called for the following:
2. Expedite the assessment process to determine the amount of unexploded ordnance on the land and the time needed for decontamination work; and 3. Ensure that the site is decontaminated at federal expense as soon as possible.
There were three main points. Now, three years later, has there been any progress?
Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne
No, there hasn't.
As far as we know, the federal government, or rather national defence, hasn't done any decontamination work.
As I explained earlier, we're the ones responsible for overseeing the decontamination of a tiny part of the site so we can build our Urbanova interchange. We would be happy to partner. If we could get the site decontaminated, that would also create a number of opportunities for things like conservation, housing, economic development and businesses.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Would you say that what you were told in 2015—that national defence would deal with removing the shells—is consistent with what you're being told today, that the department is not going to do the whole job, just part of it?
Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne
I wasn't there in 2015. However, my predecessors said that decontamination was supposed to happen, but didn't.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you, Mr. Villandré.
Thank you, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay.
Mr. Kibble, we go over to you for five minutes.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your answers, Mr. Villandré and Ms. Perreault.
Unfortunately, I'm going to speak to you in English.
I'm very sorry and saddened for what your communities have gone through.
I have a few questions for the mayor.
You mentioned 1,100 houses being built on the base and associated playgrounds, parks and schools. Would that be on contaminated land or formerly contaminated land, and if not, would it be close to that land?
Mayoress, City of Shannon
Thank you.
As to whether the land on which the homes will be built is contaminated, I can't really answer that because I don't have all the information about where they're going to be built at this time.
I know that about 1,100 units will be built and that the vast majority, if not all of them, will be in Shannon. It's possible that the soil is contaminated. As I've said, if the contamination is underground, as long as the water table retains its integrity, it poses no danger. That's the information we have now, in 2026. It's possible that the land is contaminated, but it will not pose a safety risk.
In all honesty, I think national defence is aware of the importance of providing a healthy living environment for military personnel. I have no doubt about that.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
May I ask how many people's health has been affected by this over the years? Is there an approximate number?
Mayoress, City of Shannon
I don't have an exact number for you. You're talking about something that's been going on for 26 years, and I don't have any conclusive evidence.
The stories of small towns like ours are often told by the people who live there. According to an elderly physician, Dr. Juneau, who was a member of the citizens' committee and who treated just about everyone in Shannon at the time, there were more cases of cancer, particularly brain cancer. There's a causal link to TCE. There were more cases of cancer in a specific area. However, the group and the stakeholders had trouble tracking down everyone who lived in Shannon because they were military personnel. As you know, by definition, they're transferred regularly. The population changed regularly. There were long-standing Shannon residents, but also all the military personnel shuffled in and out. It was very difficult to identify those military personnel and figure out exactly what the population was.
In addition to cancer cases, people have been very worried. Exposure was exponential. The TCE contamination rate was 100 times the legal limit. It was terrible for people. Some of the homes in the contamination areas were extremely contaminated. People experienced so much anxiety, but they still live in Shannon. They're still quite suspicious, and that negative experience has stayed with them.
I hope that answers your question.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much.
I really appreciated your comment when you said you didn't want to look back and that you wanted to look to the future. I think it's very positive and healing to hear that.
You mentioned a review of some things and you also mentioned better communication.
Could you please share some positive, concrete steps—and this is your opportunity to speak to the government through the committee—as a solution from the federal government?
Mayoress, City of Shannon
I think that, given that the military base is right in the heart of our city, we need to work together and try to find solutions together. What I'm asking of national defence is to find ways to sit down together so that we can share our concerns about the population in my territory.
Earlier, I mentioned the 1,100 housing units. That's one example. We're facing other challenges as well.
Our security services are provided both by national defence and by personnel from my jurisdiction. Who is responsible for what? Even today, in 2026, we're still discussing it. I have a risk coverage plan, but national defence isn't subject to such a plan.
I could give you many more examples like this. National defence doesn't have to obtain permits when it builds on my territory, and I'm not informed about new construction.
If we want to work together, let's create committees or find ways to be able to discuss these topics. Traffic-related issues affect both my city and the territory belonging to national defence. We therefore need to work together to move the Government of Quebec forward.
We need communication and coordination tools. However, the hierarchy within national defence is so extensive that, at times, I get the impression that its members don't even speak to one another. Do representatives from Defence Construction Canada communicate with those from the Real Property Operations Unit? Sometimes I'm not sure.
Let's find tools to communicate.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
It's five minutes and you've had six already.
Monsieur Malette, you have five minutes. It's over to you.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you to the witnesses.
I'm sorry, but I don't speak French very well.
I will be asking my questions in English.
Mayor Perreault, I understand that there will be 1,100 units of housing built on the base in the near future. Do you have any suggestions on how municipalities and the federal government could work together better in future in these cases where there is contamination? I believe it's further to my colleague's question.
Mayoress, City of Shannon
I'm going to repeat a bit of what I said earlier. The contamination example is a prime example of what not to replicate. What happened in 2000 must not happen again. How can we avoid this kind of situation? I think the answer is to work together, each within our own areas of responsibility.
I understand that national defence has security imperatives that go beyond the concerns of a city like mine, and I fully respect that. What I'm saying is that, where we have shared concerns, particularly with respect to housing and the 1,100 units that are going to be built, we need to find simple and flexible ways to work together. I'm also thinking of spaces for our children in our schools, whether they are children of military personnel or of the residents of Shannon. They are all citizens of the same community. We share the same territory.
Earlier, I mentioned that the base commander changes every two years. The commanders are extremely kind, and I work well with them, but they're only there temporarily. So I can understand that they have other concerns.
Stability therefore has to come from other communication tools, such as consultation tables. I don't have any names, but I do have many ideas.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Monsieur Villandré, I understand that there are 5,000 new units to be built in your community to house more military personnel. Can you tell me roughly how much the taxation would be on 5,000 new homes?
Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne
For every 1,000 housing units, property taxes generate approximately $5 million. So that is roughly the cost for national defence.
However, the cost of the infrastructure required to build these housing units must also be taken into account. It is necessary to ensure that there is infrastructure to provide drinking water and to treat waste water. Then, it's necessary to ensure that there are roads.
These, too, represent major investments. We're talking about several tens of millions of dollars in municipal investment. Developers are also needed to ensure the construction of the 5,000 housing units planned for that portion of the land, the former Saint‑Maurice firing range.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Of course, the $1.7 million for the UXO cleanup is in that formula as well.
Chief Administrative Officer, City of Terrebonne
As I said, the amount we have to pay relates to land that did not belong to us. We therefore consider that it isn't our responsibility to assume the costs of that decontamination. If the 5,000 housing units are to be built, that new section of land will need to be decontaminated.
I would point out that, of everything I've mentioned, the areas on which construction is possible represent roughly 3% of the territory. If we make a simple proportional estimate of the effort required by national defence to decontaminate the site, which falls under its responsibility, it becomes clear that it might take one year, rather than 30, to decontaminate the sections needed for the development.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Through you to the mayor of Shannon, with the 1,100 new units, what amount would your community be receiving for grants in lieu of essentially the revenue from the federal government for having the extra housing on that base?