National Defence Committee on April 29th, 2026

[Sarah Perreault]

Thank you for your question.

I may not have been clear enough. National defence is building on its own land, so it is responsible for the costs associated with the buildings that will be constructed.

At this point, I have no idea what those will be. I know they will be multi-unit housing, but I don't have a specific idea about the assessment of those buildings. An assessment will be done by our assessors, along with those of the military base, to determine the value of the housing units.

Earlier, I spoke about payments in lieu of taxes. We will assess that and then apply the tax rate of the City of Shannon, which, if I may take a moment to say so, is one of the lowest in Quebec. The tax rate is quite low, and it will be applied to these new housing units. The average value of homes in Shannon is about $460,000. I don't think the units on the military base will be worth $460,000. Their value will be lower, since we're talking about apartments or multi-unit dwellings.

Does that answer your question?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Yes, I'm very familiar with military housing. It is not of the same quality as on civilian land. You mentioned that the land value on base for which you're getting the grants in lieu of payments from the federal government had declined in value.

Was that because they took down buildings, or is there some other reason why your payments from the federal government for having the military base in your municipality have gone down?

[Sarah Perreault]

First of all, these are fairly old housing units that date back several years, so they have to be compared with the houses built in Shannon, which, as I mentioned, have a certain average value. There are many single-family homes on our territory. It's a small resort town surrounded by nature, with properties that often sit on large lots. This results in a loss of value and accounts for part of the difference between the assessments for my city and those for national defence land.

In addition, on my territory, there are the small Canex military stores that, frankly, no longer meet the standards of retail establishments found in a city today. These are commercial buildings, but they are outdated. These older shops and buildings haven't increased in value, whereas the Shannon side has appreciated over time. As a result, there is a valuation gap estimated at about 8% compared to the portion of the base located in Shannon.

As I mentioned earlier, the military base territory is divided between two cities. Saint‑Gabriel‑de‑Valcartier contains all the higher-value buildings, including the administrative offices and the research centre. When payments in lieu of taxes are calculated, what is located in each jurisdiction is assessed accordingly. This formula no longer reflects the reality of the territory where the Valcartier military base is located.

I don't know whether the same situation exists elsewhere, but in our case, it's no longer equitable. It no longer reflects the situation in 2026.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Do the families of serving military personnel live on the base presently?

[Sarah Perreault]

Yes, they're very close.

I'm in my office right now, and from my window, I can see the national defence housing on the left and the city of Shannon's housing on the right.

We live together. We share a territory. The children from the military base go to school with our children from the city of Shannon. It is one and the same community, with the exception that, on national defence territory, military personnel are seeking living environments that better reflect the reality of 2026. The buildings we have in Shannon are more outdated. We've renovated a few of them. These are not new buildings. They date back perhaps to the 1950s and 1960s, I would say, with all due caution.

Many military personnel choose to buy homes on our territory. As mentioned earlier, the reality you are well aware of is that military personnel are required to move frequently. They sometimes choose to live on national defence territory. In my view, the development of the 1,100 new units is driven by additional needs, but also by the need to better meet the current needs of military personnel.

We are one community. We share the same life. We share the same library. Our residents play sports on national defence territory, and we have the same day camp. We work together. We are one community. That's how I see it. We are part of a city, and we share our services.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Is the TCE plume currently being monitored?

[Sarah Perreault]

Yes. As I told you earlier, there is a monitoring committee, a team working on it.

I always try to stay up to date, but we have two meetings a year. There will be one in June.

It's complicated. What I understand is that we're tracking the plumes of contaminants as they move over time. They've been moving for 26 years.

Do we currently have realistic and feasible solutions? I'm not convinced of that today, 26 years later.

Earlier, I was listening to the general manager from the other city speak. There is also unexploded ordnance on my territory. We've restricted access to many areas, but decontamination isn't simple. It's a major challenge.

Is there a lack of will? I don't want to answer that. Of course, if it were simple, we would have done it already. These are major challenges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mayor Perreault.

Monsieur Earle, welcome. It's over to you for five minutes.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses. I'd like to direct my first couple of questions to Mayor Perreault.

You talked a lot about the committee that works collaboratively with you, as mayor. I want to understand the structure of that committee a bit more.

Who participates in it? Is it members of the CAF along with the municipality, or is it other municipalities that are adjacent?

As I listened to you describe it, it sounded like your municipality is a bedroom community for the base.

[Sarah Perreault]

This committee is chaired by the base commander. The committee includes representatives from the military base, representatives from the City of Quebec—because a small portion of the contamination affected its territory—the mayor or a representative from the City of Shannon, representatives from the citizens' group and environmental organizations, as well as representatives from the Regional Environment Council, the Ministry of the Environment, Climate Change, Wildlife and Parks in Quebec, and Environment and Climate Change Canada. It's diverse. It's an important committee.

There is collaboration, but you understand that we meet twice a year. So this committee isn't ideal. It's a good committee, but as for the day-to-day work it does, I can't answer that question. I assume they have a standing committee. I receive data, year in and year out.

I told you that last year we had a foam spill, I believe, from a river water treatment plant. We found out about it because a resident came to ask us for a key to open a gate. When I told you that this isn't effective and isn't agile, that's a good example. Had it been kept from us? I don't think so, because it was in the river and someone had come to ask us for the key to open the boat ramp. However, when I was asked for it, I wasn't aware that there had been a spill. I didn't know what was in the river. So I had to call people and do some research to find the answer. It's frustrating, for a city like ours, to have to chase after information.

Every time this happens—and I want to say this with all my heart—it adds to our anxiety. We wonder if there's co-operation or if things are being kept from us. Every time citizens see this, it always comes back to the same trauma. Are we safe? I believe we are, but every time, this relationship and trust are undermined. It's serious to do that.

We must avoid these situations if we want to work together. I told you it wasn't perfect—it's far from perfect—but national defence needs to improve its relations. I know the department faces many challenges, but these people live in our cities, they are our neighbours, they have social responsibilities, and they must fulfill them just as they ensure Canada's security. Both of these matters are equally important.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you for that. I really appreciate the answer. There's some really good context.

Early in your testimony you talked about a reduction in population in your community. I believe I heard a number—just doing the simple math on it—that there are as many as 3,000 fewer people in the municipality today than there were a few short years ago. Is that directly correlated to reduced activity on the wing, or is there some other factor that's leading to that population decline that you described?

[Sarah Perreault]

I don't know what you understood, but if that's what you understood, that's not at all what I said.

On the contrary, the population of the town of Shannon has exploded. It hasn't exploded. That's not true. However, it is growing steadily. Every year, there are newcomers, and the base contributes to that. The town now has 7,000 residents.

When we acquired part of the military base, it increased the town's population. We estimate that about 1,500 people live on the base. This is the figure we can provide because we don't have all the data. Currently, there are 7,050 people in the city of Shannon, and there are likely about 1,500 people on the base, according to our estimate. Our population has not decreased. It has grown. Our city is expanding.

I may have expressed myself poorly. I apologize.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Most likely I misunderstood, so I do apologize for that.

I think that's good news, because I was concerned that the population may have been declining because of people's fear of the contamination and the related carcinogenics and cancers that may be related there. It is good news that it's going up.

My next question is for the mayor from Terrebonne. I really appreciated your presentation and how you summed it up by saying that there's a legacy of the past that's identified, and then there are the obstacles of the present and the opportunities of the future.

For the minute that I have left maybe provide for me and the committee just a little bit more detail on the obstacles of the present. I know we talked about the ordinance. You talked a little bit, I believe, in your related testimony, about the cleanup and how it's delayed, how it's more cost-effective and how the work is being done by a company from out of the country. Talk to us a little bit more in that regard, please.

[Serge Villandré]

Thank you for your question.

For the past ten years or so, we have been planning the construction of an interchange to connect the communities. When we issued a call for bids and then began the initial work—namely, tree cutting—we found an unexploded munition. We then had to halt all work. Since this is an area we are unfamiliar with, in which we have no expertise, we worked with the Department of National Defence to find solutions. That is how we were able to issue a call for tenders. We based our decision on information provided to us by the department and on discussions held with its representatives.

It must be said that if this interchange is not built, it will prevent not only the construction of 5,000 housing units on federal lands contaminated by unexploded ordnance, but also the development of an entire sector that will allow for the construction of 20,000 housing units south of the highway. I didn't mention this earlier because this sector is not located on federal land, strictly speaking. This interchange is therefore essential to the economic and real estate development of Terrebonne. For us, it is essential that this work be done.

Because of the discovery of the unexploded ordnance, we are two years behind schedule on the work that will bring communities together, if I may put it that way so you can fully understand the situation.

As I mentioned earlier, detecting and removing this unexploded ordnance is not the municipality's responsibility. That responsibility falls to national defence, and therefore to the federal government. That is why we are here today.

I hope that answers the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Villandré.

Mr. Earle, congratulations on your seven-minute allocation.

It's over to you, Monsieur Savard-Tremblay. I'm going to give you a little extra, too.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's very kind of you. I may not need any more speaking time because, for my part, I've received the information I wanted.

Ms. Perreault said she had plenty of ideas. In fact, there will be a report at the end of this study.

Ms. Perreault, if you have any recommendations for us, now is the time to share them. Afterward, we can discuss them and vote. We are here to listen to you.

[Sarah Perreault]

Thank you for this pertinent question.

Earlier, I mentioned some units. Honestly, for the average person, unless they've been in the military, it's impossible to navigate the national defence hierarchy.

I think an initiative must come from national defence to enable us to work in a committee in an agile manner. I'm thinking of a situation like the one related to the project to build 1,100 housing units, but it could be anything else, such as a decontamination project.

Currently, transportation challenges are affecting the Government of Quebec. I can press the Government of Quebec on this. National defence, for its part, can also do so. Why couldn't we work together?

Let's sit down together to discuss the issues. I'm thinking of the school service centre. Some schools in my municipality may become overcrowded by 2026. Citizens certainly don't want to send their children farther away. I'm on the outskirts of Quebec City. The nearest school is 15, 20, or 25 kilometres away. Let's work together to make the school service centre aware that we need an elementary school. We need to do this quickly.

National defence also has some influence. Take the example of the widening of Route de la Bravoure. National defence owns land there. If we don't work together, it will be harder to get it done, and in my opinion, there will be unintended consequences. We need to work together.

That's what I want to say. I don't know what form it will take, but I have some ideas. It can be called anything. I'm ready, and I'm open to suggestions.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

That's wonderful. If you'd like to add anything, now is the time.

[Sarah Perreault]

Currently, I am experiencing problems regarding tax credits. As I explained to you, I am wondering who I should contact, which door I should knock on, and how I should go about doing this. The commander tells me I need to speak with the Deputy Minister of national defence. I am the mayor of a town of 7,000 people. You'll understand that I don't have a lawyer. Since there are so few of us, we work hard, and we're resourceful. I can tell you that my chief of staff works hard.

I'm telling you all this to explain that it's not easy. I'm currently looking for ways to make it happen.

I have contacts at the military base. There's one person who acts as a sort of liaison. She can provide me with information on a number of things, but she doesn't connect me with the people I need. This person takes my requests and forwards them to the relevant people.

We need to talk, if only to keep citizens informed. National defence closed the military base for security reasons. Citizens need to know this, because they cross the military base to get to neighbouring communities. There are young people who cross the military base to go to work at Village Vacances Valcartier. In the summer, they have to cross the base by bike. I don't want them to take the road and ride their bikes there. There are safety issues.

These aren't just details. These are important issues, and we need a voice to address these matters of safety and flexibility.

I'm being cannibalized by the military base. Because there are businesses on the base, I'm not developing the commercial sector in my area. Thirty years ago, that was fine because there was nothing else. Today, Shannon is a town. I'm struggling to develop it economically because there's a small grocery store on the base and a small pharmacy in a building that no longer meets 2026 quality standards. I want to tell them not to develop that there and not to compete with me.

All these things I'm telling you about are the reality of my town, and I need someone to listen to what I have to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Perreault.

[Sarah Perreault]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Perreault, I'll use the expression we often hear when talking about municipalities in Quebec: we say it's a “provincial creature”.

It is a creation of the Quebec government, and, particularly in Quebec, federal government bodies must go through, notably, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, or MMAH, or the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Land Use Planning, or MALUP, depending on the acronym in use at the time. You've worked in the provincial government, so you're familiar with the acronyms.

What are you doing to try to improve things with the ministry?

I understand your problem. You're the mayor of a town with 7,000 residents. You want to improve the quality of life for those people. You want your municipality to grow and prosper. However, you have a taxpayer who doesn't necessarily contribute their fair share and who acts a bit like they own the place.

How could you succeed in improving relations with the help of the Quebec government? Perhaps by creating a tripartite committee?

How can we make city management easier?

Your municipality is functional. You are the one who keeps it running, but you are constrained by the Quebec government and by national defence. You are responsible for schools, you are responsible for public safety, but you are not in charge of your own affairs.

How can we make recommendations to ensure that the federal government finds solutions?

As you said earlier, you don't know what's happening elsewhere. Neither do I, but I know what is happening at the Valcartier military base. In Saint-Gabriel and in your municipality, the town of Shannon, these are rather unique situations.

How could we ensure that we facilitate co-operation between national defence, in particular, and the towns in Quebec, but also across Canada?

We need a comprehensive vision. It's likely that the hierarchy and administrative red tape within national defence mean that, in the end, you're the ones left holding the bag. There's a waste of energy. There's a waste of money, and we're adding another layer in Quebec because you can't speak directly to federal authorities.

As you said earlier, help us help you.

How can we help you make this more sustainable, so that the municipality of Shannon can go even further, to become an attractive town, a picturesque town, a vacation destination?

In fact, I am pleased to represent it as the member of Parliament for Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier. Your municipality is one of the 26 municipalities I represent. Your municipality actually has the lowest tax rate. So that is a source of pride, but I would like to be even prouder. I would like us to work together, Ms. Perreault.

Could you give us some guidance in this regard?

[Sarah Perreault]

I would say that I am a creature of the provincial government. I'll say it as I see it. Sometimes, I feel that the provincial government is no more qualified than I am when it comes to negotiating this kind of situation.

I'll just give you an example.

I'm dealing with a security issue. We've already discussed this together. As I said earlier, I am subject to a risk coverage plan. In my jurisdiction, national defence has a public safety service. National defence residences are located in my jurisdiction. Who is responsible for their security?

Currently, this area is not included in my risk coverage plan, but I do have certain responsibilities. For example, I don't act as a first responder, but I will ensure safety on the streets. That is a major problem.

Beyond the problems, there are also challenges—I want to put this correctly—for the people who work there. The firefighter wants to put out a fire. If I tell the firefighter at the military base that he can't respond in his territory because it's on our side, he gets frustrated. He's a firefighter. He wants to be active. It's the same for firefighters in my city. When I arrive to negotiate, we try, but we have to wait to receive legal opinions.

I'm straying a bit from the topic, but this is my reality. If someone tells me, “Ms. Perrault, you're not responsible for security”, they'll have to take responsibility for it.

Am I required to verify whether national defence's public safety criteria are the same as the criteria imposed on me by public safety?

In fact, I'm caught in a bit of a bind. If I'm required to have four firefighters on duty or eight firefighters for a response, does national defence have the same obligations?

Is all of this my responsibility?

I'm asking questions, but I don't have any answers. National defence has lawyers. It's a much larger organization than mine. I've sought legal opinions. I've asked what I should rely on. Then I have to knock on the provincial government's door to request a decree, a signed agreement, that's legally binding. If I want an agreement that is legally binding, I have to have it ratified by the Government of Quebec, because I can't have a direct agreement with the government. That's complicated too.

As I told you, I'm a civilian.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Perreault.

I appreciate your energy, enthusiasm and concern. I think all of us recognize the concerns that you face—and those in Terrebonne as well.

I'm going to give the last question to Ms. Romanado, if you want to wrap it up.