National Defence Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on September 16, the committee is meeting to commence a briefing with the Minister of National Defence on the main estimates, supplementary estimates A, the minister’s mandate and NATO defence spending.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines on the table. The measures help prevent audio feedback incidents, and protect the health and safety of all participants and interpreters.

As a matter of protocol, I remind witnesses and members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English, or French. For those in the room, please use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will try to manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have the Honourable David McGuinty, Minister of National Defence. Thank you for being here, and thank you for agreeing to come, yet again, in short order.

We also have General Jennie Carignan, chief of the defence staff, Canadian Armed Forces; Mario Pelletier, commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard; Caroline Xavier, chief, Communications Security Establishment; Natasha Kim, associate deputy minister, Department of National Defence; Heather Sheehy, assistant deputy minister, materiel, Department of National Defence; and Jonathan Moor, chief financial officer, Department of National Defence.

I will now invite the minister to present his opening remarks. You have up to five minutes. Welcome, again.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to all members for inviting me to appear here today. You just had my colleagues introduced to you, so I won't reintroduce them, but they're all here to continue on after I'm not able to stay. I may very well turn to them if I could, colleagues, during the line of questioning for their insight and their experiences as the operational experts in the department and the Canadian Armed Forces.

Since my appointment in May, I’ve had the privilege of working with an exceptional team of dedicated public servants, military leaders and civilian experts who are helping to strengthen Canada’s defence and security.

I've also travelled repeatedly across Canada and to Europe to meet with the brave women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I've concluded that their contributions to Canada are simply second to none.

I observed a renewed sense of purpose and urgency across our entire team in relation to current and evolving threats. Together, we are taking bold steps to rebuild and re-equip Canada's military and support that reinvestment.

That means ensuring that the Canadian Armed Forces, or CAF, are well equipped and supported, so they stand ready to undertake any mission entrusted to them. That is not possible unless we make generational investments in our capabilities, operations and personnel.

In total, Canada is investing nearly $63 billion in defence this fiscal year alone. This includes over $9 billion in new funding, which the Prime Minister announced in June.

Let me start where it really counts, where it all begins, and that is with our people.

One of the greatest privileges of this job has been meeting members of the Canadian Armed Forces, hearing their stories and hearing about their pride in serving Canada and the challenges that come with that service.

To better support them, we announced major improvements to the CAF compensation and benefits package just this August.

Members across all ranks will see their pay increase by 8% to 20%, depending on rank, through adjustments to the military factor, which recognizes the unique demands of military life. Many will also see additional increases based on years of service, occupation or deployment status. Colleagues, this is a long overdue and well-deserved pay increase for our forces.

Investing in our armed forces means attracting more talent to augment our ranks.

That is why we are modernizing our recruitment processes, by introducing a probationary period, removing outdated medical requirements and establishing new digital tools for a faster path to enrolment.

That means recruiting more people more quickly and keeping them. I am pleased to tell the committee that, this year, recruitment hit its highest level in 10 years.

We know there's more to do, colleagues, not only to recruit people but to also retain them. As part of our efforts to rebuild our forces, we continue to advance culture change, ensuring a safe, inclusive, trustworthy and respectful workplace for our members.

Through Bill C-11, we are modernizing the military justice system, reinforcing principles of fairness and accountability for our people in uniform. I'm pleased to note that this bill completed second reading in the House two weeks ago and will shortly be coming to this committee for further study. I thank each and every one of you for your support. I look forward to returning to committee to speak about this important legislation, and I eagerly await the outcomes of your important study of the bill.

As we invest in the next generation of CAF members, we're also making crucial investments in our military capabilities—specifically, the equipment and infrastructure that enable CAF operations. That includes building our fleet of River-class destroyers, procuring future fighter aircraft and modernizing ground and communication systems from top to bottom.

Let me be clear: Across all of our projects, we're focused on value for money and on ensuring this work creates jobs and supports the Canadian economy. To drive these efforts further, we're developing a brand new defence industrial strategy to strengthen Canada's defence industrial space—a national first. We recently launched the new Defence Investment Agency to cut red tape and accelerate delivery of equipment to our troops.

Finally, we remain focused on operations, both at home and abroad. Throughout the year we have thousands of CAF members deployed across the country, in Europe, the Indo-Pacific and beyond. Their vital work reinforces our commitments to NATO, NORAD and our global partners. Likewise, our colleagues in the Communications Security Establishment and the Canadian Coast Guard make critical contributions to our defence and security.

Before concluding today, I want to acknowledge that, earlier today, the Auditor General released two reports covering CAF housing and recruitment. These are good and important reports. We thank her for those reports and welcome the recommendations. Not only are they an integral part of ensuring fairness, transparency and openness in how we conduct government operations, they also gave us the crucial information and guidance about what we're doing well and where we need to improve. After all, the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces deserve that.

It's a busy time for Defence. I look forward to discussing our priorities with you in more detail. Most of all, Mr. Chair, through you to all of the members, I look forward, in openness and utmost sincerity, to your constructive and thoughtful suggestions for improvement. We are in this together. The women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are counting on us.

Thank you.

I would be glad to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Minister, for your opening remarks.

I pass it on to our vice-chair, who has six minutes. James Bezan, it's over to you.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, before you start the clock, I just want to give notice of motion:

That the committee invite the Auditor General to appear for no less than two hours to discuss her reports tabled on October 21, 2025, including Recruiting for Canada's Military, Housing Canadian Armed Forces Members and Cyber Security of Government Networks and Systems;

that the committee invite the Minister of National Defence and relevant officials to appear in a separate two-hour meeting to address the government responses to the above Auditor General reports;

and that both meetings take place before December 12, 2025.

I'll start my round of questions.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing. I appreciate that. Time is precious, so I'll go quickly. Earlier this fall, in September, Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee said that the Royal Canadian Navy should consider having two separate fleets of submarines. Then that very same day, reporters asked Prime Minister Carney a question in New York, and he responded:

nothing I see that would suggest that we would have a mix fleet in submarines.

You just get too many efficiencies in economies of having one fleet....

Do you agree with that statement?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I do agree with the Prime Minister's statement. After we down-selected from five to two, thereby accelerating the process by a full two years, it put us in a better position to negotiate with two potential suppliers, to maximize our benefits to get the submarines that we need. There is definitely a question of economies of scale here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you for that.

Minister, you told reporters earlier this summer that you would make decision on the F-35s by the end of summer. That's already passed, by a month. You also said that you would consider the decisions taken by your department officials. The chief of the defence staff, the Royal Canadian Air Force commander and the deputy minister have all come out saying that F-35 is the plane that they need. When are you going to make a decision on this review, and how much more is it costing us every time we start playing politics with this procurement?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You won't be surprised that I disagree with the categorization that this is about politics. This is about ensuring that we take the time, colleagues, to get this right. This is a very big purchase for Canada. There are many elements involved in that purchase, many parts. We are reviewing it. It is well under way. The review is continuing. We have been participating in this program since its inception in 1996. It was conceived and developed, and it continues to be operated, jointly with eight founding countries. Right now, that review continues. Obviously, we're going to take the time we need.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You mentioned the defence industrial strategy. What happens if we go with a different aircraft than the F-35? There are already thousands of jobs that are tied to the production of the F-35 in Canada, over 2,000, from what I can gather, in places like Winnipeg, Montreal and Richmond, B.C. Are we at risk of losing those jobs if we select a different aircraft?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's an important question. It is one that obviously the folks who are conducting the review would be compelled to look at, I would think. I am not conducting that review; it is done by our officials.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

As we've heard from the ambassador, this is an irritant, the dragging of the F-35 contract. This plane won in a competition that your government ran. I know that you decided to pause that, but we are committed to the first 16. Is that correct?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That is correct.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If we don't buy the rest of the aircraft, have you talked to the consortium and the joint project office about the jobs that are tied to the production and the future maintenance of not just the Canadian F-35s but the entire fleet of F-35s that are part of our allied and coalition partners? Those jobs could potentially be coming through the sustainment side, the maintenance side and the engine overhaul that could be happening at depots and places like Montreal and Winnipeg?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm sure that all of these important questions are part of the review that's ongoing. You are right in indicating that there are 37 Canadian companies that have contracts now supplying goods and services for the F-35. There are millions of dollars accruing to Canadian industrial benefits per plane that is manufactured and sold. We'll obviously take the time we need to get this right. Each plane is a very major acquisition. There are many questions here that we're trying to address at the same time.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On the defence industrial side as well, we could also talk about support for Ukraine. We know that the Liberal government promised to buy 25 refurbished LAVs. They were going to be re-armoured by Armatec just outside London, Ontario. Now we're hearing that the contract has been paused or cancelled. Nobody at Armatec can talk, because they are under a gag order from the Liberal government. Ukraine is saying that they want those armoured vehicles, and they aren't being delivered.

In that one decision to cancel that contract, you're turning your back on both Ukraine and the defence industry here in Canada.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

There has been a decision that's been taken to nullify the contract with that company presently. Obviously, I can't go any further in terms of discussing the merits of it. We'll see how that evolves in terms of the relationship between the department and the contractor.

It's important for Canadians to remember that there are several types of vehicles that are being shipped to Ukraine. We've already shipped 89 armoured combat support vehicles to Ukraine, 49 of which were delivered between the fall of 2022 and the fall of 2024. The remaining vehicles are currently being delivered, with the final vehicles being schedule to arrive before the end of this year. There's quite a bit of supply and quite a bit of materiel that has been supplied.

Of course, the most recent—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, a lot of that equipment has been destroyed in the war. The drone warfare that is taking place there has diminished the capabilities of a lot of the land vehicles that we had sent over. Why wouldn't we want to supply these ones? The contract was already awarded, and the announcement was already made. Why not carry through and give Ukraine what they want and support Canadian jobs here at home?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I wish I could give you more insight into the reasoning behind the department's decision to cancel the contract. I'm not in a position to do so.

I would say this. We were one of the first three or four in world to purchase to a $500-million U.S. package for Ukrainian materiel through the PURL program in the United States for materiel chosen by the Ukrainian military authorities. That's already being delivered. A lot of that, of course, constitutes drones, drone technologies and anti-drone equipment. We're there. I just came back from the NATO meeting. There's a very strong resolve by Canada and NATO as a whole to continue to support the brave women and men in Ukraine who are fighting a very difficult war.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

It's over to you, Mr. Watchorn. You have up to six minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. It's been very informative for us in terms of what lies ahead.

Thank you, Minister.

As you are no doubt aware, a few weeks ago, we had the good fortune of visiting CFB Petawawa and talking to soldiers there. The government announced significant investments to support members of the armed forces, including pay increases, housing improvements and equipment purchases. Minister, I know you've been to almost every military base in the country, so I'd like to hear the response you're getting from soldiers when you talk to them. The ones I met were very happy, but I'd like to know how soldiers see these investments overall.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

First and foremost, the biggest response to these announcements from the women and men in our armed forces has been surprise. We are talking about not only investments in compensation and benefits, but also ongoing investments in the 33 military bases, including improvements to water and waste water systems, housing design and construction, child care services and infrastructure. We are also talking about investments to purchase fighter jets, submarines and tanks, among other things. I could go on, because it's a long list. People are astounded, and they are just as surprised at how quickly we are moving.

For example, two weeks ago, we purchased a 37-unit apartment building in Esquimalt, British Columbia. To my knowledge, it is the first time the Department of National Defence has purchased a private building, with just five weeks from proposal to purchase. That is unprecedented in the department's history. We are moving quickly because we understand the need to rebuild, rearm and reinvest in the armed forces as is called for.

The reaction from members on the ground has been positive. They're a bit surprised, but they are very glad. They are amazing people.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you for that answer. We have indeed neglected our armed forces for too long. It's time to invest, and we are doing it.

As you know, Canada has a clear plan to reach NATO's defence spending target of 2% of GDP this fiscal year. We are investing in the CAF through pay increases for members, as mentioned. We are supporting Ukraine by providing what it needs to win the war. We are investing in Canada's core military capabilities. These historic investments are meant to ensure that we do our fair share domestically and within the alliance.

Canada and NATO allies agreed to a new defence investment commitment for 2035. Under the commitment, Canada will invest 3.5% of GDP in core military capabilities.

What investments is Canada planning to make to reach the NATO target?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

If you'd like me to go through all the investments, it could take a few hours.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Yes, there's a long list. You can start by naming the main ones.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We decided to extend our presence in Latvia for another three years. We have more than 2,000 CAF members deployed there. It is a major investment that will continue.

Recruitment was up 50% in the last fiscal year, the biggest increase the CAF has seen in a decade.

At the beginning of the process, the most important thing was investing in the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces. That's why the first decision that was made was to improve their compensation and benefits.

Recruitment is up, and we are continuing to purchase equipment. For example, we are investing in replacing water and waste water infrastructure.

It's a long list. We've broken down the projects into phases, implementation being the priority. We set specific timelines to reach the implementation stage in an orderly way.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

When we visited CFB Petawawa, we had a light armoured vehicle operator accompanying us. He showed us around in the vehicle, and we talked to him about the challenges he faced. He was a young soldier. He told us he was very happy with the pay increase and our commitment to housing changes and improvements. That said, he got his gunner certification two years ago, but since then, the lack of ammunition has prevented him from training to become operational if sent to Latvia, for instance.

Will the government's investments ensure that our soldiers have the ammunition they need for training and better operational capability when they are deployed?