National Defence Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Right. Do you have something in place for that?

[Gen. Jennie Carignan]

Yes, we have plans and programs that are evolving over the next few years to rapidly get to a good place as we onboard new capabilities, like the River-class and so on and so forth. Absolutely.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

The reason I'm asking is that we're making movements to put the Coast Guard under the DND umbrella, but it doesn't sound like we have a strategy in place. Is that a fair statement?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No, I don't think so. It's not a fair statement. We're in the middle of planning the retrofit of existing vessels. We're procuring lots of new vessels. They will be equipped and fit up with the equipment we need to be able to pursue our IAMD objectives, which are making sure that what happens in the air, on the water, below the water, on land and, ultimately, in space will be connected.

That's exactly what an IAMD system is. That's what we're contemplating for North America. Those are the kinds of conversations we're having with the United States, and we've been having them for 20 years, up to a certain extent.

We've lifted the freeze and now we're fulsomely pursuing that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sorry, Mr. Anderson. We're over the time.

Monsieur Chris Malette, I'll turn it over to you. You have five minutes.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much.

First, I'd like to thank you both for your visits to my riding in the Bay of Quinte this summer to visit CFB Trenton and 8 Wing. General Carignan, I'd also like to thank you for your visit in August and the announcement you made there.

Minister, your announcement of the $850-million investment in CFB Trenton, specifically, was very well received and appreciated by those stationed there and their families. I've had the opportunity here, first-hand, some of that over the summer.... It's been very well received.

This important project of $850 million in infrastructure is strengthening our operational capabilities and supporting economic growth in my riding. Can you tell us a little more about the modernization efforts specific to our air mobility—as it affects my region, with CFB Trenton and 8 Wing—and the impact of those infrastructure upgrades at 8 Wing?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'd like to take a second, if I could, at a 10,000-foot level, to remind Canadians how important National Defence and the CAF are to the Canadian economy. Everything we do and every dollar we invest are also about the economic benefits for Canadians—Canadian companies and workers—and we're going to need to pull up the slack. There will be sunrise and sunset industries in Canada, as there always are.

Canada's defence and security industries generate about $14 billion in revenue now. That's 81,200 direct jobs and over 200,000 indirect jobs. That's $9 billion in GDP to Canada's economy. For example, when I met with Irving shipyards, I heard about 2,400 local employees and 10,000 knock-on jobs across the country in the supply chain.

When we were in Trenton, announcing the $850 million, not only was it very clear to us that the acquisition of the new Husky refuellers was important for refuelling our fighter jets in the sky and using those aircraft to do many other things; it was very clear to us that this would create 1,000 full-time jobs in the Trenton area for some time. These are bricklayers and cement workers and jobs in HVAC, electrics, design, steel and aluminum, acquisition and logistics.

If you multiply that, Mr. Malette, across the country for the investments we're making in the bases, it's astonishing. I had this conversation with Premier Smith in Alberta, who was shocked to learn of the extent to which the Canadian Armed Forces is investing in Alberta. There will be billions of dollars of economic activity in Alberta, which is going to have a profound effect on jobs.

I met the folks who designed the apartment building that is being built at CFB Edmonton. It's been designed in a way so that we can take the design, shrink-wrap it and replicate it all over the country because we own the IP, the architectural design and the engineering design. However, the jobs it created in the city of Edmonton and the region were just incredible.

If you multiply this over and over again at 33 bases and in up to 3,000 communities where the Canadian Armed Forces are located in Canada, you see the potential impact is dramatic.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

Further to that, I mentioned earlier that, this summer on that visit, the Prime Minister made the announcement, giving our forces a well-deserved pay raise, something that had been neglected—as you pointed out, as well, Minister—for several governments and several years: $2 billion in pay and benefits. I know it's already impacting the Bay of Quinte region and other regions where CAF members live and work. There are civilian spinoffs as well.

Untrained soldiers, sailors, privates and aviators received a 20% pay raise. Can you give us a high-level view of how this pay raise and compensation package will help with retention? We've spoken a little bit about retention today. Is this showing an impact? I believe the numbers are up, but do we have any way to quantify how that may be affecting recruitment and retention?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We will, more specifically over time as these pay increases kick in, retroactive to April 1. Members will be getting a lump sum payment very shortly. It's going to be important for us to monitor the effects of that. It'll take a first-year private from $42,000-$43,000 per year to $52,000-$53,000 per year, plus other benefits. It's a question of watching, now, to see.

It's important for us to try to remember, collectively. We ask the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces to do some pretty difficult things. We ask them to relocate frequently. We ask the young woman mechanic from Bagotville to get on a plane and fly off to Cold Lake for a month away from her family and kids to repair helicopters. There is no collective bargaining. There is no overtime. We ask these people to give us a lot. Our view is that we need to meet them in the middle in terms of what they give and what we supply and support them with.

We're of the view that if we invest the right way in pay, remuneration, incentives, annual bonuses, recruitment, retention, housing, child care, health care, dental and all of the things that this department and the Canadian Armed Forces are called to do.... The more we do and the better we do that, the higher performing our Canadian Armed Forces will be. This is well established around the world.

If we have people worried, looking over their shoulder, not able to do their jobs because something isn't right in the balance of their lives, that will not help us achieve our secure and sovereign objectives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Minister, that concludes your time, sir. Thank you very much for your comprehensive discussion and deliberations. We very much enjoyed your presentation.

I'm going to suspend for a moment, folks, so that we can restructure ourselves.

Thank you, again, Minister.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you so much. It's very appreciated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I'm resuming our meeting. Thank you again.

We're going to pass it over to Mr. Anderson. You have up to six minutes.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Thank you very much.

General Carignan, we've talked about fighter jets, tanks, artillery and better wages. I remember the basic equipment: uniforms, guns, armour and things like that. Are there any commitments on the books right now for that?

[Gen. Jennie Carignan]

Yes, there are various programs right now to modernize all of our services across the board. We are in a major transformation position and we are also organizing this transition very deliberately as we move to new equipment or, sometimes, equipment we don't have or capabilities that currently don't exist.

The challenge for the Canadian Armed Forces at the moment is continuing to do the business of defence, because clearly we cannot put defence on pause while we are effecting this transformation, so that is the priority: both transformation and, at the same time, ensuring that we are pursuing our defence missions.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

I know we are producing 155-millimetre shells; we've seen in Ukraine how fast we go through munitions like that. My understanding is the Americans are taking most or that we are producing shells for the Americans more than for us. Is that correct?

[Gen. Jennie Carignan]

This is not my field of expertise. Maybe I can ask a colleague for clarification.

[Natasha Kim, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, General. I'm happy to chime in on this question.

The 155-millimetre shells are absolutely a priority of ours. As the minister mentioned, we have made investments into, for example, IMT Precision to be able to increase the production of those shells to up to 5,000 per month.

In addition, we are looking at investing in a new production line that would provide a new variant of 155-millimetre shells, so there are discussions under way for that.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Concurrently with that, are we producing shells for the Americans as well?

[Natasha Kim]

The U.S. would have their direct contracts with suppliers. That would be on a commercial basis.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Okay. That's not a “no.”

Are the delays on the F-35 costing us tens of millions or hundreds of millions? Do we have a figure on how much this business is costing us?

[Gen. Jennie Carignan]

We are moving ahead with the current plan with the F-35s, so we are pursuing this until the review shows us otherwise. We are moving ahead with the construction of the infrastructure that is required and then we are moving ahead with the training. The program is basically continuing as planned.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Okay. My question was about how much this is costing us. Do we have an estimate of how much the delays are costing us?

[Gen. Jennie Carignan]

There are no delays. We are on track with the spending as programmed.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

I've heard that the F-35 has been a topic of discussion for years, and it keeps on being delayed. We're moving ahead with the infrastructure for it, but why are we doing that if we don't know if we're going to get the F-35? How much is Canada paying for these delays? If we don't know, then we don't know, but that's my question.

[Heather Sheehy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence]

I would agree that there are no costs associated with a delay. There was an OAG report recently that talked about the increased cost with respect to the CF-35s, and I can provide some breakdowns of that if you're interested in that.