Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[Johanne Gélinas]

There's no silver bullet.

One piece of information that is important is that in the overall plan that we audited, half of the reduction should have come through emissions trading. Emissions trading was a key component of greenhouse gas reduction. As I said earlier, it's still under construction.

The other big chunk is really the transportation sector and the heavy industry sector. There again, as long as we don't have clear measures we won't be able to achieve the objective.

You have three pieces there that have not been taken into consideration so far. So when you look at the target, it's hard to believe we were going to get there.

With respect to the EnerGuide, your question will probably find an answer through the Treasury Board program review.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

From the Conservatives, Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I was just looking over this. Just to restate for the record, what years was this audit done for? What period were you covering in your audit?

[Johanne Gélinas]

It's hard to say when exactly we started, because it depends on the program. Some programs started in 1997, so we looked back to 1997. It's easier to say that we closed the books in June 2006. Sometimes we were able to have updated information until 2006, sometimes 2005, sometimes 2004. Depending on the measures we looked at, we could have covered 2000, 2002.... Overall, I would say close to a ten-year period.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

But nothing prior to 1993. That would be correct to state.

I look at your recommendations here. They're pretty basic, pretty simple: provide sustained leadership, integrate energy and climate change. There was a government that was in power that was supposedly committed to this for that length of time, and for a decade there was absolutely no leadership. That seems to be the absolute raw minimum of government.

Do you not agree that leadership is one of the minimum requirements of any bureaucracy when dealing with this program?

[Johanne Gélinas]

What you referred to are not my recommendations. They are, let's say, food for thought.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

You said there are five areas you believe are crucial.

[Johanne Gélinas]

There are five areas of key importance, but these are not the recommendations. The recommendations are very specific, and the government has already responded to those recommendations.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I think we're nuancing here. Basically the core lack at the top of everything was that there was no leadership for over a decade.

[Johanne Gélinas]

Yes, but that's not a recommendation per se. It's a statement.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

That's an analysis, then. The basic analysis of the situation for over a decade was that there was absolutely no leadership by the previous government. It wasn't just the bureaucracy; it was the government itself, too, that showed no leadership regardless of the rhetoric, regardless of the statements, regardless of what has been claimed. I realize you're civil service; you're supposed to be there.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

I was just going to say, Mr. Trost, that at this point we're not really getting inquisitorial. We're just asking the--

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

No, I was making a statement, Mr. Chair. I wasn't pushing for any response. I realize the civil service is good and non-partisan.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

You indicated you could fill the three minutes, and you have. At that point, I think you're out of time.

Madam Gélinas, I'd rather go to the others, because we'll run out of time. You have made your point, and natural justice here is to allow the other parties to have their questions--

[Johanne Gélinas]

But it's important to--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

--in the context. If you wish to get back to that, you can, but I'm going to go to the Bloc.

Who would like to ask a question? Mr. Ouellet is next.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to clarify one thing. I read somewhere here that the Kyoto Protocol includes a carbon exchange for emission reductions.

In my opinion, no particular format is set out in the Kyoto Protocol. Every government decides how it wants to proceed in order to meet its targets under the Kyoto Protocol. In addition, the carbon exchange was an idea proposed by the Liberal Party. I am not saying whether it is good or bad. However, it has no connection whatsoever to the Kyoto Protocol. Very often we are told that the Kyoto Protocol includes that, but that is not correct. The Kyoto Protocol lays out targets.

So, when I read that in your paper, it wasn't very clear. But that is not a serious criticism.

In Chapter 4 of your report, on page 2, you say that, “Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada has made sustainable development principles a key component of its Agriculture Policy Framework.”

Could you tell us in just a few seconds what they have done at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada?

[Johanne Gélinas]

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask Neil to answer that question.

[Neil Maxwell]

Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

That was an example. One of the things we do when departments make commitments in those strategies is look to see whether they actually achieve them or not. That was one in which they fell short of what they intended to do, but we were quite complimentary in the report about the fact that in that department they've taken sustainable development and tried to implement it within all of the agriculture policies in the agriculture policy framework, so it was actually an example we used to show that sustainable development is working in some parts of the federal government.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Madame Gélinas is next.

[Johanne Gélinas]

Mr. Chair, I wish to correct something, because some people are putting words in my mouth that I haven't said. Nowhere in this report have we said that the previous government lacked leadership. We have made the comment that in looking forward, leadership will be needed if we are to achieve our Kyoto target.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Thank you, Madame Gélinas.

We're out of time on that one too.

We'll now go to the NDP. Madam Bell is next.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you.

I was looking at pages 12 and 14 regarding the wind power initiative, and I note that Environment Canada has maintained a wind atlas for over 40 years, which is quite a long time. I think the first time I visited a windmill in eastern Quebec was in the year 2000, so that's about six years ago.

In your report you examine and evaluate the renewable electricity from wind power and you make some recommendations. Given that the funds for the WPPI program are frozen, and based on the Natural Resources Canada response to the recommendation 3.32, how does the frozen fund impact their ability to evaluate this program?

[Johanne Gélinas]

I cannot answer that question, Mr. Chair. You will have to ask Natural Resources Canada that question.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Good, and as I had said, Madam Bell, let's have a little bit of time at the end of the committee because we can follow up on those kinds of things.