Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Actually, I would have liked to ask Ms. McCuaig a number of questions, because there's a lot of good stuff going on. We just don't have the time here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

You will get a chance in the next round.

Madame DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman was underscoring the diversity of opinions of our guests. What we have had here is what we call rich presentations that allow us to reflect upon issues along with you.

My question is for Ms. McCuaig-Johnston or Ms. Griffiths. I am a newly elected MP, so I am somewhat confused.

Could you identify clearly for me who has the power and authority to intervene in the implementation of the recommendations put forward by the Pembina Institute, in other words the establishment of a wetlands policy, etc.? Who has the ultimate authority to make decisions and take action with regard to water? Is it the province of Alberta or the federal government?

Ms. McCuaig-Johnston might enlighten me, on behalf of the government.

[Margaret McCuaig-Johnston]

A few weeks ago, a colleague within the department, Mr. Howard Brown, came here to discuss this matter. He followed up by providing a document detailing the responsibilities of the federal government as well as those of the provinces. I would simply say that I today discussed the research and development responsibilities of our department.

Furthermore, there are colleagues within the department who oversee

groundwater, the Geological Survey of Canada. I would be happy to provide information to the committee as to the mapping they are doing of the groundwater and the additional information they provide to regulators, who then base their decisions on it.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting you, but this was simply a question of clarification. I simply thought that you could tell me whether, yes or no, the implementation of the Pembina Institute's recommendations falls under federal or provincial jurisdiction.

Mr. Wollmershausen, what is your opinion of the Pembina Institute's recommendations to the effect that the oil industry should have to pay for its use of fresh water? Did your board look into this matter?

[Jim Vollmershausen]

The board has not dealt with that particular question, no; we have not. On the general question you're asking about who decides what, at the Mackenzie River Basin Board we're certainly very aware that in Alberta a number of decisions are made by the province. The Alberta Energy and Utilities Board has a major decision-making role to play.

On the federal side, there are permits and licences that are required, and they become part of the overall permitting process around each project. They tend to get dealt with as part of the environmental assessment processes, which are normally joint processes, federal and provincial together.

Ultimately, final decisions are rendered by a federal minister and a provincial minister. They deal with their requisite stuff.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Your board does not have an opinion on this matter. That is what I understand.

[Jim Vollmershausen]

Not on that particular.... We haven't dealt with them, no.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Madame DeBellefeuille, you have two and a half minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Very well.

You must be aware, Ms. McCuaig-Johnston, that I am passionate about science and technology. I am the member on this Committee who asks the most questions about science and technology.

I received a report from your department that gives the amounts of money that Natural Resources Canada devotes to science and technology. I looked at various tables. I have data for 2004-05 and I would like to take advantage of your presence here for you to help me understand this table. It is divided up as follows: “Energy“, “Minerals and Metals“, “Earth Sciences“, “Forests“, “Administration“, and there is a grand total of $366,000,730 devoted to research and technology. It says in the “Energy“ section that $174,201,000 have been devoted to the energy sector.

I would like you to tell me if the energy sector comprises all energy sources, in other words oil, gas, wind, biomass and solar? Is all of that included in the column entitled “Energy“?

[Margaret McCuaig-Johnston]

Energy in this case includes energy efficiency, industry, and buildings. It includes fossil fuels, renewable energy, hydrogen, and fuel cells. Those are the broad categories; then there's a tiny bit in additional areas.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Is it easy for you to identify, within the “Energy“ section, the percentage of these amounts devoted to non renewable and renewable energies? Would it be easy for you to do this?

[Margaret McCuaig-Johnston]

Renewable energy is $20 million this past year and fossil fuel is $47.8 million. That includes the research we're doing in the oil sands to reduce the use of water in the oil sands. Then hydrogen and fuel cells is $12 million. Energy efficiency is $29.2 million.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Merci, madame.

Ms. Bell.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their presentation.

I have questions for each of you with respect to recommendations.

Mr. Vollmershausen, the Mackenzie River Basin Board can do studies, but can it also make recommendations?

[Jim Vollmershausen]

Yes, it can.

When you see the “State of the Aquatic Ecosystem Report”, for example, you'll notice right at the front of it a number of observations and suggestions about work that needs to be done. One of the ways we can try to influence decision-making is by making those kinds of observations and suggestions.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'll wait until I read the report to get the rest of it. Thank you.

Ms. Griffiths, you talked about the impacts of the heavy use of water on the surrounding area, on communities, and on first nations. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little more on that and what the impacts have been with regard to rivers, communities, and especially first nations, with regard to fishing and that sort of thing.

[Mary Griffiths]

I understand Pat Marcel is coming next week. He's an elder with one of the first nations, and that's why I didn't deal with that in detail. I felt it would be much better for him to talk about it first-hand.

I know they are very disappointed that there's not yet any instream flow management, because of the concern about the impacts on the fish. Also, I know that from their perspective more research is needed on the fish tainting problem, because to a large extent the bitumen is responsible for the fish tainting effect, and it actually causes health problems. I know they would like more research done on that, as well as on the Peace-Athabasca Delta, as I mentioned in my presentation.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I know that the institute has called for a moratorium on future development, or called for it to slow down. How long do you think it would take until the land can be reclaimed? There's really no approved reclamation by the Alberta government, but how long might that take? Do you have any idea?

[Mary Griffiths]

I don't know how long it's going to take Alberta Environment to give approval for the reclamation. I mentioned the ten acres of consolidated tailings, but I think about 9% of the mining area from Suncor and probably about 20% of the mining area from Syncrude have been reclaimed. They are trying to reclaim the land as they go along, but of course it's usually a 20-year lag before they can start reclaiming from one particular area.

With all the new projects coming on, we've asked for a halt, at least while we get something in place. We have not specified a time, but I think even those involved in the industry in Alberta realize that the pace of change has been so rapid it's had incredible impacts on the whole economy everywhere you go. In Alberta it's hard to get the people to do the work, and it's having repercussions throughout the whole of the province from a social point of view.

We've not actually set a time limit on that. We don't plan to be disruptive, but we feel it is time to do some catching up with the existing projects and go ahead in a staged manner, rather than everything happening at once. We've actually had one or two companies now say maybe they'll delay a project, as it's going to cost them so much because of the shortages of labour. It may come about to some extent through the industry itself, but on the other hand, it's better to have it required, so that it's a staged development and you get people to work together so that nobody misses out, but we at least do things in a more responsible, measured manner.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. McCuaig-Johnston, you talked a lot about the research and development. I found it very interesting. In terms of research and development, are you ahead of the industry or are you trying to catch up ?

[Margaret McCuaig-Johnston]

I would say we work closely with them, but we have an ability to look out a few years beyond and look at the longer-term research.

I would ask Kim Kasperski to respond to that because she leads the committee on water and the oil sands and is plugged in well with the research the industry is doing.

[Dr. Kim Kasperski, Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources]

We do, as my ADM has mentioned, work closely with industry, so we are current with our existing technologies. But what we are trying to do is push the envelope, so we are trying to develop, for example, much more aggressive tailings treatments at our laboratories so we can then say to the producers that this is a way to do it, this is what it would cost you, and this is the effect on the water chemistry, and how about it?

So we are trying to stay ahead of the industry in those terms.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I just have one question about the tailings. What do you do with the clay?