Natural Resources Committee on Jan. 29th, 2008

[Sheila Fraser]

That's correct.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Just as, as I understand the chronology, Linda Keen was appointed as president of the commission in 2001.

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm not aware of when Ms. Keen was appointed.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

You were, as I understand it, appointed at the same time as Ms. Keen, or within the same calendar year.

Ms. Fraser, I'll ask you this candidly. Do you consider yourself, or do you think others consider you, a Liberal appointee?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I guess that depends on what we infer from that expression. To say that I was appointed by a Liberal prime minister is factual. If you try to infer from that that I have any partisan leanings, I would take great exception to that.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

How would you react—you've indicated that you would take, understandably, exception—if a decision you made was singled out by the Prime Minister as having been influenced by the whims of a political party?

[Sheila Fraser]

Quite frankly, Mr. Chair, sometimes we have to make decisions or arrive at conclusions in audits that people don't necessarily agree with. There can be a lot of commentary made about that by parliamentarians and others.

Sometimes those comments come with the job, and we have to ensure, I think, that there's no long-lasting perception of any lack of objectivity. Certainly I would be concerned if people thought there was a lack of objectivity when I was carrying out my work.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Boshcoff has a follow-up question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Boshcoff, you have two and a half minutes left.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

When we talk about the independence of quasi-judicial bodies--you mentioned the process and the protocol--the real issue is how the political process comes to interfere and direct quasi-judicial bodies and their independence.

In this case, where is the line between a minister telling such an organization what to do and, in a similar way, the Minister of Finance telling you what to investigate or not to investigate?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I feel very uncomfortable dealing with this line of questioning, because we have not done any work on this. I know there is guidance and there are some directives that I believe the Privy Council Office has published, but we have not actually assessed those, nor have we looked at specific examples.

Obviously, as was mentioned, the Minister of Finance is our minister, if you will, for administrative purposes, but we would take great exception to anyone, quite frankly, telling us what we were to audit or not audit. I think that is understood within government.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

In your examinations, would Ms. Keen's performance record, in terms of shortcomings in leadership, ever arise as an item through your audits of AECL?

[Sheila Fraser]

We have done special examinations of the commission. I believe we did an audit in 2003-04. Actually, it was a follow-up audit to some previous audits. But we examine systems and practices of the commission or the corporation, for example; we do not do specific performance evaluations of individuals.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

So nothing would have arisen showing a tremendous lack of leadership or direction?

[Sheila Fraser]

No, but that would not have been the focus of the audit.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

We now go to Madame DeBellefeuille for seven minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Good morning, Ms. Fraser.

I am the member for Beauharnois—Salaberry. Dundee is part of my riding and the people who live there are very proud of you. So I would therefore like to welcome you to the committee.

The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, the regulatory body responsible for insuring nuclear safety for all Quebeckers and all Canadians, has been the victim of political interference in our opinion. Ms. Keen has said that AECL was not complying with the conditions of its licence. Consequently, there was a dispute. Could you tell us who has the legal authority to make a decision in this type of dispute?

It appears to us that the behaviour of the president, who did her job in accordance with the act, displeased the minister and the government, and that she was therefore fired. Where does the truth lie in such a situation, and on whom can Canadians and Quebeckers rely when it comes to nuclear safety?

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, we are probably the only two people who know where Dundee is located.

I am not a constitutional expert, but in a case where there may be some very important compromises required and where there is a difference of opinions regarding a regulatory body, I do not think it is inappropriate for Parliament to make the decision. In fact, it is up to Parliament to make these choices, as has been mentioned on other occasions. This is true in a case of national security, for example. Some compromises have to be made to take costs into account, together with the desired degree of security and the ease with which people can cross the border.

So it is up to Parliament to make decisions of this type and to take a stand on the compromises that should be made. I do not think it is inappropriate to ask Parliament to decide in cases where a regulatory body puts forward an opinion that could have very significant consequences.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

One of the things mentioned in your special examination report is that you look at human management and governance. I have noticed that there is a lot of turnover in the senior management positions at EACL, and that this was a real problem. I noticed that on November 1, in the middle of the crisis, the CEO, Mr. Robert Van Adel, left his position. He had held it for a few years. In fact, his mandate was renewed on February 5, 2005. Mr. Ken Petrunik replaced him on an acting basis, and, Mr. MacDiarmid was finally appointed on December 14.

I would remind people watching this on television that a CEO at AECL earns over $300,000 a year.

What do you think about the quality of governance and human resources management at AECL during the crisis? I think it was so lacking that the head people at the corporation may not have done their job properly, and consequently not make some important, crucial decisions regarding the number of days. I think that if there had been stronger and better leadership, rather than unstable government, decisions would have been made more quickly, and this would have avoided the shortage of medical isotopes.

What comments would you make about governance at AECL during the crisis?

[Sheila Fraser]

I can obviously not presume that the situation is due to the shortcomings of management. I am not aware of all the facts and I do not know everything that happened. One thing is clear, we pointed out in our report that there would be several changes to the board and that there were upcoming vacancies. It was clear that the president's term was almost up, and that had been known for some time.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Are you talking about President Michael Burns? I am talking to you about management.

[Sheila Fraser]

No, I was referring to President Van Adel. It was known for several months that the end of his term was coming up and that he would have to be replaced. There were also changes to the board. We brought to the attention of the minister the fact that these appointments would have to be dealt with, and needed to be dealt with more expeditiously.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

You will agree with me that a lack of leadership during a crisis does not help to quickly resolve problems. That is a principle, even in personnel management.

[Sheila Fraser]

I hesitate to comment on that particular situation because I do not have specific information.