Evidence of meeting #39 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was binder.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Binder  President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Nigel Lockyer  Director, TRIUMF
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Chad Mariage
Jean-Luc Bourdages  Committee Researcher

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Binder, everyone agrees that it is possible to upgrade the NRU reactor. I am not a nuclear energy expert, however it seems to me to make sense that one cannot indefinitely upgrade an old reactor. At some point in time, this will no longer be possible. If it could be indefinitely upgraded, then half a billion would not have been invested in the MAPLE reactor, and it simply would have been constantly upgraded. The decision to invest in MAPLE 1 and 2 was made for the purposes of continuity, in order to guarantee an isotope supply.

In order to reassure Quebeckers and Canadians, I would like you to tell us for how long upgrades to the NRU will be possible. One day, this reactor's life will come to an end. One cannot produce new material out of old material forever.

11:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Michael Binder

Yes, one could, by replacing all the equipment.

Bruce Power, for example, is refurbishing a whole nuclear plant. They stop operations, they change everything in it, and they get another 20 years out of it.

We will not be able to tell you that until we get a submission from AECL that will tell us precisely what they're going to do to make sure that the unit operates, and for how long.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Binder...

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Merci, Madame DeBellefeuille. Your time is up.

Ms. Bell, you'll have up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

June 17th, 2008 / 11:30 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Binder and Mr. Lockyer, for attending.

A couple of my questions have already been answered. Being third, that's what happens.

Mr. Binder, you've been in this job for about five months, I think you said. We know that because of the crisis that happened back in November and December of last year, new protocols were put in place for the supply of isotopes in the case of an emergency, because there had been some miscommunication, I guess, or a lack somewhere. From your perspective—and you've probably done an overview of everything—are you confident that the protocols that are in place are sufficient to address an emergency situation, if one were to happen, given that we don't have the MAPLEs coming on line?

11:35 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

Just to clarify, the protocol is that the Department of Health is making sure they have some contingency plan in case shortages materialize. Our responsibility is strictly to make sure that the NRU continues to operate for as long as it's safe. We are not responsible for the production of isotopes. It's the AECL and the NRU that actually produce them and give them to MDS and anybody else, such as Nordion.

The one thing we've put in place is that if we become aware of a shutdown, either planned or unplanned, we will alert everybody that it's coming. There will be no unknowns, if you like, in this; everybody will know, if we believe a shutdown is coming, and will know it immediately.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Lockyer, you said you have a contract with Nordion for 30 years. They supply how many percent?

11:35 a.m.

Director, TRIUMF

Dr. Nigel Lockyer

They supply 15%.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Okay, I did hear it right.

Given that, could this percentage, if needed, be increased?

11:35 a.m.

Director, TRIUMF

Dr. Nigel Lockyer

That's a good question, but we do not produce technetium-99, which is the isotope that, as I said, is the workhorse of the industry. We produce primarily isotopes for.... They are produced for SPECT, but also for PET. It's not exactly what you need for replacing the output of the NRU.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Right.

Is there a possibility that this capacity could be built in some other way?

11:35 a.m.

Director, TRIUMF

Dr. Nigel Lockyer

That's a question of an alternative production method for technetium-99, so I have a few things I could say about that. Let me simply say that the present method to make technetium-99 is to make moly-99. Moly-99 is the so-called generator, then from moly-99 it decays into technetium-99. The present method that's used, I think, is the best. It's the best method out there.

It takes highly enriched uranium, uranium 235, and uses a neutron to fission it, and that's how you make the moly-99. What you end up with is something that has what's called a very high specific activity. In other words, most of the unit of mass you're working with is almost entirely radioactive, so it's very pure.

There are alternative methods that are used. The most common method is to use moly-98 to start with, rather than uranium 235. Moly has two long-lived elements, moly-98 and moly-100, so they're the two you could use as a target. So the moly-98 could absorb a neutron and it becomes moly-99. That's pretty simple. The issue is that the absorption of that neutron is six times less likely than the fission of the uranium 235 that makes the moly-99 with the procedure we use now. That means you end up with a sample of technetium-99, which has what's called low specific activity, so the issue becomes how do you deal with that.

One option is to use a higher-flux reactor. The NRU reactor has about 1013 neutrons per centimetre squared per second. The Oak Ridge reactor is 100 times more intense. So you can compensate for neutron flux that way. That's used throughout the world now in other places, but it's not the preferred method because of the low specific activity.

There are other issues associated with low specific activity that you have to worry about, which is that it gets contaminated in this process of eluding the technetium-99 off of the moly-99 column. You basically take the moly-99, put it in a saline solution and pull off the technetium-99. That's a straightforward technique, but it has a bit of contamination in it, and that's where the regulation comes in.

The comparison of those two techniques, both of which use reactors, is that the present technique has very high specific activity; the alternative has low specific activity. The present technique requires highly enriched uranium; the alternative requires highly enriched moly-98. There's an advantage in that. That's not a weapons material, for example. The present technique generates a lot of radioactive waste; the other method does not--it has very little waste associated with it. You can make some other isotopes with the present method that you cannot make with the alternative method. So there's the balance. You could do it, but it's not as good.

The other approach is with accelerators. I don't know if you're running out of time here—

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Probably.

11:40 a.m.

Director, TRIUMF

Dr. Nigel Lockyer

Yes, but maybe I should continue, because somebody else will be interested.

For accelerator production, you can think of an accelerator as a source of neutrons, like a reactor. The difference is that an accelerator, I would say, is easier to build and it's easier to regulate. If you turn it off, it goes off--that kind of thing. So you could imagine making moly-99 by simply mimicking a reactor. You take the highly enriched uranium and you would put the neutrons in it, not from a reactor but from an accelerator. The problem with that method, I think, is it's pretty expensive. That would be the drawback to it, but you could do it. There's no reason you couldn't do it; it's simply money.

The other approach, which I think is more interesting, is to start with moly-100 and use an electronic accelerator, which would then generate photons and you would use the photon to remove one of the neutrons. So moly-100 goes to moly-99. Remember, earlier I added a neutron to 98; now I'm subtracting one. It's the same issue as before: low specific activity. Can you build that accelerator? Yes. Is it relatively inexpensive? Yes. So what is the issue? The issue again is the low specific activity. I think that's the issue that has to be solved.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Ms. Bell and Mr. Lockyer.

Ms. Gallant.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Binder, it's refreshing to have a CNSC president who has an understanding of the science upon which you are regulating an industry.

I'm interested in the CNSC decision-making process and the relationship between the office of the president and the other members of the CNSC board. How regular is contact between the president and the board?

11:40 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

On every matter associated with public hearings, it is continual. We all get the same documentation. We all get notices of hearings, staff assessments, etc. In addition, I share with them a lot of the common papers, international agreements, what's going on, environmental scans, things of that nature. They are part of the whole commission. However, they are part-time, so we try to make sure that we get the best out of them. This means making sure that they are well briefed for the public hearing.

We webcast all our meetings, so it's available to the public. If you have nothing to do for 12 hours, you can listen to some compelling presentations and some very tough questioning of witnesses about designs, assumptions, and safety.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

So you are situated in the CNSC office, and the board members are spread out across the country. You communicate with them electronically, I take it.

11:45 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

Normally, but in public hearings we all come together.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Does the flow of information from the commission pass through the president to the board members, or do board members receive information directly from staff?

11:45 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

We have a secretary who is in charge of the tribunal business. He sends the applications directly to all of us at almost the same time.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

What role does a communication director play in the flow of information to the board and members of the public, including parliamentarians?

11:45 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Dr. Michael Binder

We try to be as transparent as possible, and any of the proponent material coming in front of us is posted. They have to allow us to post any of the interventions. Everything else is in the public domain. We're trying to put as much information as we have on the public record.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

So the information comes in and then gets posted raw, so to speak, for people to see?

11:45 a.m.

President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission