Evidence of meeting #39 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was binder.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
The difference between medical and research, is it night and day? Is it adaptable, or does it require sizeable investments?
Director, TRIUMF
Big medical centres want both. They want to produce isotopes for clinical use and the doctors want to do research with them at the same time. They have a dual function.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
The optimal facility would be one that is currently doing some form of research that has that, preferably a cancer research centre that maybe has the concrete walls and the protection, a medical school, a hospital or university--would it be that kind of conglomerate?
Director, TRIUMF
I would say a major medical centre is where you have this activity.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
When you mention the business inquiries, is it coming from different types of people who are interested and maybe financing this at some of those sites, perhaps?
Director, TRIUMF
It wasn't so much financing. There are people who have patents on producing, for example, technetium-99, or moly-99, using accelerators.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
When MDS Nordion mentioned their sizeable investment in the MAPLE project, would they have any proprietary rights in terms of being able to take whatever they've invested and apply it to a situation such as yours, or would that expand isotope production?
Director, TRIUMF
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but my general feeling is that since we've worked so closely with MDS Nordion in the past, in anything we would do we would want them to be involved, because that's their business. They're experts on many aspects of it. As you know, there's a business model associated with it, and it's not only the production issues.
I think you can produce it, but that's not the issue. The issue is if you can produce it pure enough. Then, all the other things being satisfied--meaning cost, for example--would be a big factor.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Could any operation start up in Canada essentially from scratch, not associated with MDS Nordion or TRIUMF, even if they had some of the other components, such as research and hospital and medical school? Could they start up and develop a competitive isotope production facility?
Director, TRIUMF
I don't think there's anywhere in Canada with the know-how that even approximates what TRIUMF has. TRIUMF has a very large group of people who are experts in design, production, and building of accelerators. There's nothing like that anywhere else in Canada. But the U.S., Europe, and Asia could.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
With the events of last November and December, have you heard of things in the United States or in the rest of the world in terms of filling the vacuum in market share?
Director, TRIUMF
We read the same newspapers, probably, so the answer is yes to that. The University of Missouri has a reactor, and they're looking to produce moly-99 and they're trying to get funding to do that. They don't at the moment, but there's certainly a movement to do that.
There has been a recent national academy study on the production of medical isotope, even before the issues came up with the NRU. There's always this tension of using highly enriched uranium to produce them as well, but we have a special deal, as you know.
Liberal
Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
What is the world demand? Is it insatiable? If we produced more facilities and produced more, would it all be used? In terms of capacity, is there a limit for research, for clinical, for any other experimental uses or pure health reasons?
Director, TRIUMF
That's a good question. My impression from talking with people at MDS Nordion is that for technetium-99 it's kind of flat. It's not a growing field.
I made a comment earlier about PET. It's growing where I expect the growth to be--in centres wanting small cyclotrons to produce the isotopes locally for PET scanners rather than for SPECT.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Boshcoff. Your time is up.
We go now to Madame DeBellefeuille for up to five minutes.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is for Mr. Binder.
Mr. Binder, if you were to conclude that the NRU reactor no longer met safety standards, but under the new guidelines you had to take the health of Canadians into account, you would have to choose between health and safety.
Would you be willing to shut down the NRU reactor even if you could end up in the same situation as your predecessor?
President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
That is a very difficult question. It's a hypothetical question. We will have to weigh security and safety with health issues. That will be part of the process; the tribunal will have to make a decision.
So I won't give you an answer now to a hypothetical question. We absolutely have to make sure that the safety of Canadians is protected, but in deciding what the safety is we have to also take into account....
Everybody has to understand that we're talking about substituting the NRU. But the NRU is...the volume of moly that they're producing is unmatched by anybody else. It's another consideration that will go into the decision-making process.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Mr. Binder, this is a new guideline and therefore it has not had to be enforced. During the isotope crisis, there was information being exchanged between Health Canada, the Department of Natural Resources, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. It wasn't straightforward. A communications protocol was issued, but there was not a clear picture of isotope needs throughout Canada. The data was not available.
If something were to happen today, would you have a protocol that would give you quick access to information on the need for isotopes, in order to be able to do a health and safety analysis based on accurate and true data?
Everywhere we have heard witnesses from the health sector and everyone had their own perspective of these needs depending on their province, whether it be British Columbia, Ontario or Quebec.
Are you able to answer that question? Do you have a source of information that would quickly give you an accurate picture of the need for isotopes throughout Canada?
President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
No, I do not have that data because these are trade secrets.
There are companies out there, from MDS Nordion to a couple of other ones, who are trying to source the isotopes elsewhere. I know that Health Canada now is studying the issue.
All we are looking into is whether a particular reactor, if it continues to operate, will operate safely. That's really our mandate. It is not our mandate to assure a supply of isotopes. It has to be very clear: our mandate is to make sure that we take the production of isotopes as an input into our decision with respect to keeping a particular site open. It is not for us to go around and check to see where other supplies of isotopes will come from.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Mr. Binder, if you had to assess the threat to the health of Canadians and compare that to safety risks, you would have to have a very clear picture of Quebeckers' and Canadians' need for isotopes. Otherwise, how could you decide whether you shut down a plant or not?
President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
AECL will come in front of us, and we'll argue the pros and cons, and interveners from the medical associations and governments can come and argue their case for and against. We will take all of this under advisement and make a decision.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Merci, Madame DeBellefeuille.
We go to Mr. Allen now.
Mr. Binder, I see that you have to leave. It's twenty after.
President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
I'm sorry. I promise you that if you want me, I will be back.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Okay. Thank you very much for coming. We appreciate it very much.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
I had three questions, Mr. Chair, but I guess two of them are now off the table, as Mr. Binder's leaving. I'll go to Mr. Lockyer on the question I have.
You mentioned that in the U.S.—correct me if I got this wrong—PET has exceeded the SPECT for usage in the U.S.