Evidence of meeting #1 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Marie-France Renaud

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I actually agree with Mr. Siksay that the amendment he discussed just a moment ago is the fairest way to go. I'm going to move as an amendment that it be Conservative, NDP, and Conservative. Let me explain why.

What we're effectively talking about here is time allocation. We're talking about how much time each member or each party has to speak, or, if you want to look at it on a macro scale, how many opposition minutes versus Conservative minutes there are.

I have made a quick calculation. If we look at that number, it's apparent that under Mr. Siksay's proposal the opposition would still have nearly twice as much time to speak. They would have 41 minutes to ask questions versus the 27 minutes the Conservatives would have to ask questions. So they maintain the advantage they are seeking, but at least it's a little bit more proportional or more reasonable than what we were discussing prior to this.

In a spirit of compromise, I think under the circumstances if we adopt the amendment that Mr. Siksay proposed and was considering--for 41 minutes to the opposition and 27 minutes to the Conservative side--everybody would get a chance to speak. The NDP would get a chance to speak twice. I think we would be resolving the concern. I think there are very good reasons to do this.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You've heard the proposed amendment. Is there any discussion on that amendment?

Madame Brunelle, do you want to speak on the amendment?

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

I would like someone to read the amendment to me slowly. I cannot understand the translation at all. I understand that the order in the first round of questions stays the same. I have no idea what is supposed to happen in the second round. Can you tell me that nice and quietly?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Merci.

We'll have the clerk read the order of the second round.

4:35 p.m.

The Clerk

In the second round, it will be five minutes per questioner. The order will be: Liberal Party, Conservative Party, Bloc, Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Conservative Party, New Democratic Party, Conservative Party.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

And do we drop the other rounds of questions?

4:35 p.m.

The Clerk

There would be two rounds only.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Two rounds only.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You've heard the proposed amendment. Is there any further discussion on the proposed amendment?

Let's go to the vote.

(Amendment negatived)

Is there another proposal?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, I propose that witnesses be given 10 minutes for their opening statement, and that at the discretion of the chair during the questioning of witnesses, the following times be allocated: round one, seven minutes, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party, Conservative Party; round two, five minutes, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, Conservative Party; round three, five minutes, Liberal Party, Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Conservative Party; round four, five minutes, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party, Conservative Party.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

What an excellent idea. I love it.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I just need a minute.

The amendment is acceptable for debate. The other one that ended up with the same result was not voted on; it was withdrawn.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

This is an amendment to my original motion, is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

This is an amendment to your original motion, that is correct.

Any discussion on the amendment?

Mr. Trost.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Again, we're going back to what was in the previous Parliament. Maybe people haven't noticed, but the seat count has actually changed.

I realize that the other three parties aren't quite sure whether they are in a coalition or are running attack ads against each other's leaders--or whatever it is they're up to--but the Liberals lost 26 seats and still want to have the same time allocation they had before. That I find amazing. I'm perfectly fine with the New Democrats getting more of a time allocation than they did in the previous Parliament, because they actually have more seats. But this just doesn't make sense to me, how you can do it.

I mean, if the whole objective of the opposition party is that we don't care about reality or fairness or how this reflects the House or the membership of the committee, why don't they just put all the Conservative members in the fourth round, have all the rounds loaded up for themselves, and basically exclude Conservative members to do it?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Is that a proposal to do it?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

No, that's not a proposal to do it. That's just a remark saying that this is the intent--

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Order, please. Let's respect the speaker.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

The honourable members couldn't quite get away with that in the press, because they would be shamed for it, but they're essentially doing a modification of that.

Look, you can do all the political grandstanding you need to do for the press, and do the stuff that opposition parties do, in one round. You can do that. It's in the later rounds that you start to get serious business. We could actually do serious work on serious issues and come up with serious recommendations. There are a lot of times when members, not from my caucus, or not my party, have asked good questions to elicit good information. To do that, you actually need to have a variety of people with a variety of backgrounds asking questions.

I realize that the House leaders, the whips, and the more partisan members always are interested in getting the clip for the news and moving on. But the purpose of committee should be to actually learn something so that we can do better policy for our constituents. This seems to have been lost on certain elements of the House and apparently on certain new members of this committee.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Trost.

Any further discussion or debate on the proposed amendment?

Mr. Hiebert.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think if anybody were to read the transcripts, or if there were anybody watching if this were televised, they would look at the situation and they'd say to themselves, “Hmm, there are six opposition MPs from different parties and there are five government MPs. Why wouldn't they allocate the time appropriately?” Six on one side would get 55% of the time and five on the other side would get 45% of the time. That would be a reasonable way of approaching this.

What the opposition is now proposing is that they get 67% of the time and the government get one-third of the time. That's two-thirds to one-third. That doesn't make common sense.

Things have changed. It may have been more appropriate under the last Parliament when the numbers sitting around the table were a little bit different, but to pretend that hasn't changed and that you want to keep the same amount of time you had before now.... It's not the same thing over again. It's dramatically different. It's giving a significant increase to the amount of time that opposition members have to ask questions of witnesses, to be a part of the discussion.

On our side we're trying to be reasonable. We're proposing solutions. We're proposing compromises that even still favour the opposition members. The earlier amendment that was put forward by Mr. Siksay, which was perfectly reasonable, still gave them 41 minutes to 27 minutes, which is by my calculations still about 60% versus 40% of the time. They're still getting much more than they would normally be due, simply based on their numbers sitting at the table. It's almost as though they're at the table and they're trying to grab more than they deserve, and I think that's not reasonable.

We're back in Parliament. We're trying to work together. We're trying to show Canadians that we're able to cooperate and to do so in a reasonable fashion. I think if you brought this question to a class of elementary students, they would do the math that they have been taught and they would come to the same conclusion that we're proposing or that has been proposed, even though it's more generous to the opposition.

Instead of--dare I say the word--being a little bit greedy, and trying to have it all or increase their influence, why don't we all put a little bit of water in our wine and come to a compromise that reflects reality a little bit more than what's being proposed?

Even if you were to look at the numbers in the House of Commons and look outside of the current numbers at the committee here, there are 143 government members and there are 164, minus the Speaker, opposition members. What's the proportion there? Well, it's 47% to the government and 53% to the opposition--nearly 50-50. That's not what they're asking for. They're asking for two-thirds to one-third. If you add up the time, they're talking about 56 minutes versus 27 minutes, twice as much time versus half the amount of time. It's simply unfair and unreasonable.

What was proposed in the motion put forward by Mr. Siksay of 41 minutes to the opposition and 27 minutes to the government gave everybody a chance to speak. It treated all members equally, and it gave the opposition members an advantage. We're willing to do that. We're willing to set aside our rightful allocation in favour of the spirit of cooperation. I genuinely hope that some reasonable heads can prevail in this discussion; otherwise it's going to perpetuate a great deal of dissatisfaction and discomfort at this committee because certain people will be marginalized.

Canadians have given us a mandate and said, “This is the allocation of seats we want. This is the amount of time and influence people should have. People should not be marginalized. People should have a chance to have their voices heard.”

The opposition parties love to speak for the minority. Well, this is the case here.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Did you do the math?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

You love to speak for--

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

But the majority of Canadians are right here.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Order, please. Let Mr. Hiebert finish.