Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2010

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I never thought I would see McCarthyism in 2010, Mr. Chairman. That's interesting. I wasn't around at the time.

Minister, I have a serious question. You spoke about national strategy. Of course, I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all situation because we have to be respectful of jurisdiction. You said you were disappointed, rightfully so, about the content of the last conference.

For the benefit of our study, how would you perceive that national strategy? We're all working together.

[Ronald Liepert]

I'm going to relate this a little bit to health care. Everybody agrees we need to change how we deliver health care, but when we come down to the really serious discussions on specifics that we need to change, then we start to run into issues.

I think everyone can agree that we need a national energy strategy for Canada. What's going to be really difficult is when we peel that onion back, one layer, and start to talk about specifics. I do believe there are some things that we can agree on.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

What would be your definition of the word “national”, then?

[Ronald Liepert]

You can have a national strategy that clearly protects and respects provincial and territorial jurisdiction. That's easily accomplished.

Let me just conclude by saying this. I actually believe we need a continental energy strategy, because so many issues that develop in the United States that impact Canada are not part of a strategy; they're one-offs. If we had a continental energy strategy, that wouldn't happen. The problem is we need to get to a national, a Canadian, strategy first before we go to a continental strategy.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Would you believe our partnership should be, then, to invest more in R and D and green technology? Would that be the relationship among governments, the industry, and environmentalists?

[Ronald Liepert]

I can only tell you what we're doing in Alberta. As I explained earlier, we have the fund that does exactly that. I believe Canadians want us to invest more in research and development into alternate technologies. I don't think that's much of a dispute.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Would you prefer that to fiscal incentives?

[Ronald Liepert]

Yes, to be short.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

We go now to Mr. Shory for two minutes.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to talk about the tar sands and other things, and the economic impacts of the natural resources of Alberta throughout Canada. I don't understand what the NDP has against Alberta's natural resources. I'll come back to that after.

My first question is for the Montreal Economic Institute. It's a threefold question.

One, what economic benefits are there for Quebec if shale gas is developed? Also, have you done any numbers on it? The last question on this issue is this. What are some negative consequences if Quebec does not develop the resource, both in terms of the economy and regulations?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Who would like to answer that?

[Jasmin Guénette]

Both of us can, if possible.

First, with regard to the economic benefits, as I said in my presentation, according to the Government of Quebec itself, the development of 250 wells represents investments of $1 billion. We're also talking about 10,000 jobs that would be linked to the sector, obviously without including the profits that businesses could make, the direct and indirect taxes that would be paid in Quebec.

Those in fact are figures that show that the economic benefit of the development of this resource is significant.

Vincent, do you want to add something?

[Vincent Geloso]

Yes, I would like to add something.

There's also the fact that in Quebec there's a huge consumption of heavy fuels, mazout lourd, and actually Quebec is the highest producer in Canada. Forty percent of Canadian consumption of this heavy fuel, which I sadly don't know the English term for, mazout lourd, is a highly pollutant substance. It also causes a lot of smog. And it is easily replaceable by natural gas for industries like concrete and other fuel industries.

It doesn't only have economic benefits for society in general; it also has environmental benefits, in the sense that it would most likely reduce greenhouse gas emissions, because, first of all, natural gas produces nearly 30% fewer emissions for GHG emissions, and it also doesn't create any particles that actually cause smog as mazout lourd does.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Shory.

We'll go now to the Bloc Québecois, Monsieur Pomerleau, for two minutes.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, everyone, including the person who is with us by video conference, Mr. Parfitt.

My question will be for you, Mr. Guénette. You spoke at length about respect for private property, about the right to free negotiation, in fact about issues that come up quite often and are good issues. The problem here, as my colleague noted, is that entrepreneurs negotiate with people who have land and not with the owner of the resource. That's the problem. They negotiate with the person who will give them a right of way, but to access a resource that does not belong to the owner of the land. The owner of that resource is the population of Quebec.

At what point do you think businesses really negotiate with the population of Quebec to acquire a right to access the resource?

[Jasmin Guénette]

If there is some legal confusion, the partners should first sit down and find a basis for agreement so that the rules are clear and known to everyone. That's the first thing to do, in my view.

Second, when the time comes to drill, as drilling is obviously done on the land of an owner, the negotiation should be started at that point. We believe that proceeding with drilling with the owner's consent as to the place where it will be done will make the transactions much more "normal", I would say. Both parties involved will therefore be in agreement since the—

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Are you aware that the owner of the land is not the owner of that resource?

[Jasmin Guénette]

Exactly, the business therefore can lease part of the land for five, seven or 10 years, long enough to—

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

It leases a right of way, that's all.

[Jasmin Guénette]

Exactly, but the surface rights still belong to the owner, and that resource must still be developed in cooperation with the landowners. When the time comes to drill, they must be at the bargaining table with the business, individually or collectively, so that acceptable prices can be negotiated both for the landowner and for the business.

If the business is prepared to offer such and such an amount of money and the people accept it, then everyone comes out a winner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Merci, Monsieur Pomerleau.

We go, finally for this round, to Mr. Shory again for two minutes.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for giving me this opportunity.

This question will be to Mr. Liepert.

First of all, thank you for coming all the way here.

In your presentation, Mr. Liepert, you talked about the demand for energy in the coming days, that it will increase. You also talked about energy, specifically about the oil sands and how they're beneficial to the rest of Canada, and you tied it with the jobs throughout Canada, whereas the NDP leader, during the 2008 elections, wanted to stop any expansion in that industry.

My question is on the economy. Would you elaborate on some of the economic relationships that have been built between Alberta and the rest of Canada as a result of Alberta's success in the oil and gas industries?

[Ronald Liepert]

First of all, I'll make maybe just a quick comment on your very first remark.

I think there is this sort of belief by some that there is a diminishing demand for oil in the world. The U.S. energy department just released statistics about two days ago, and it said that the usage of oil last year, from the year previous—and keep in mind we're in a recession—increased by 936,000 barrels a day. So there is no decreased demand for oil in the world.

So how do you deal with it? You either rely on it from offshore or you develop your own energy security supply.

This is a national treasure of the country. It was described by an American senator as a national treasure. It creates jobs not just in Canada but in the United States. I like to say, “We don't build any caterpillars in Alberta, but we sure use a lot of them.” They're built across North America.

I think the most telling statistic is the one I quoted in my remarks, that there are 28,000 people today who are working in camps in Northern Alberta on construction sites. Half of those Canadians are flying in and out every week or every two weeks from east of the Manitoba-Ontario border. It is creating jobs. it is creating tax benefits to those communities. And I'll tell you that it's a win for everybody because those workers are able to stay in their communities, their families are able to stay in their communities, whether they're in Quebec or Newfoundland, and their children go to the same schools they're used to going to, and they're working.

I think that's the part of this whole discussion that is overlooked, that this isn't just a benefit to Alberta. This is a Canadian treasure that we should all be very proud of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Shory. You're out of time.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses today: Minister Liepert, Mr. Guénette, Mr. Geloso, and also to Mr. Parfitt. Thank you all very much for coming. It was very helpful.

We'll suspend for just a couple of minutes as we set up the next video conference and get to the second panel of witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We will reconvene the committee, in spite of the news that apparently the Riders coach has just resigned. I know that's traumatic for some of our members here at the table.

But seriously, back to the second panel today on our study on energy security in Canada. We have with us on the panel David Coon, the executive director from the Conservation Council of New Brunswick, and Stephanie Merrill, the freshwater protection program coordinator. Thank you very much for being here. And by video conference from Halifax, Nova Scotia, we have Barbara Pike from the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies.

Thank you all very much for coming. We will have presentations of up to seven minutes from each of the two groups and then get to the questions. We'll do it in the order listed. From the Conservation Council of New Brunswick, go ahead with your presentation, please.