Evidence of meeting #48 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was waste.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Binder  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Patsy Thompson  Director General, Directorate of Environmental and Radiation Protection and Assessment, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Ramzi Jammal  Executive Vice-President and Chief Regulatory Operations Officer, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Duncan Hawthorne  President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power
Patrick Lamarre  President, SNC-Lavalin Nuclear Inc., Bruce Power

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Obviously I've listened with interest to the searching questions the committee has already asked of the regulator, so I don't intend to reprise all of that. Let me start by introducing what Bruce Power is. I'm sure you may be aware of some of these facts.

We are Canada's only private sector nuclear operator on the shores of Lake Huron and we operate North America's largest operational nuclear facility. As this topic brings about, we are in the process of refurbishing and returning to service 1,300 megawatts of nuclear plant that was retired from service some 15 years ago.

As part of the process, of course, we do have very clear regulatory guidelines governing everything we do, frankly, but as we went through the decision-making on the return to service of these units, we did go through the environmental assessment process that preceded our project, which commenced for real in late 2005.

The first slide gives a bit of background. When you turn to slide 2 you can get a sense of the magnitude of the activity that represents this refurbishment project. We are replacing many of the major life-cycle components, including all the reactor core material where we are dismantling all the reactor pressure tubes and calandria tubes and all the reactor internals. We are cutting them into small pieces and storing them on site.

One of the unique features of this project is that each of our reactors has eight steam generators. If you consider the picture you're looking at on slide 2, the four square blocks equate to the four reactors. Units 3 and 4 are in operation, and if you notice the third one from the left, you see a large crane parked outside unit 2. It was through the use of this crane that my colleague, Patrick Lamarre from SNC-Lavalin, took on board the project to remove these steam generators from their location and to replace them with new ones.

As was mentioned previously, of course, many elements of this project went into the planning phase. Everything we do in the industry is governed by two things: first, a commitment to meet our regulations; and second, to seek continuous improvement.

Dr. Binder mentioned the whole principle of “as low as reasonably achievable”, the ALARA principle. It's one that I'd say governs the very safe operation of Canada's nuclear industry. We should recognize that we have an industry with a stellar safety record, and it compares very well with the nuclear community internationally. I can say that because, as my accent would let you detect, I started my 40-year career in this industry in a different place, so I know what U.K. standards look like, I know what U.S. standards look like, and I know what Canadian standards look like. So I'm able to give some degree of objectivity to how the Canadian nuclear industry compares with others.

On slide 3, we're trying to give a principle here. As I said, I'm not trying to talk about the half life of radioactive isotopes, because, as was just pointed out, I can tell you the difference between heavy and light water reactors too and eat up an entire hour of this committee hearing. This can be a very complicated subject, or it can be a simple subject based on good practice and principles.

This diagram here we call “The Right Thing to Do”, but this is not a Bruce Power diagram. This comes from international standards and procedures. This is the internationally accepted mandate that all of us have to minimize our environmental footprint. It's true in domestic waste today where we consider what our standards looked like 20 years ago when we did not segregate our domestic waste, and look at where we are today: we separate plastics, we recycle, we turn plastic water bottles into chairs. We do many things to reduce our environmental footprint. No surprise then that the same obligation is placed on the nuclear industry.

As we continue to evolve our thinking, we all have an obligation to reduce our environmental footprint. So when we talked about the possibility of storing these steam generators--and to answer the question someone will ask, if we refurbish all these units on our site, there will be 64 steam generators: eight times eight. We've done two, so that gives us 16 steam generators.

Our intention would be to refurbish all of these units as part of Ontario's long-term energy plan. A critical part of securing the extra life will involve replacing all 64 steam generators over the next 20 years.

Clearly one of the issues we have is whether it is environmentally responsible. Is it the best option we can think of to build 64 buildings, which look very similar to the size of this room, for the sole purpose of storing these steam generators? For within that environment, we are more than aware that there are four grams of radioactive isotope material inside a 100-tonne vessel, which has to be secured and looked after for a very long time.

That was the option open to us. That was the bounding option and our planning assumption for environmental assessment.

But none of us can be satisfied that's the best we can do. As we looked to international practice, we saw a number of utilities facing the same timetable as us, the same requirement to replace many of their aging components. And we started to see a change occur. Rather than store things for the long term, people developed techniques and strategies and approaches.

In fact, Studsvik is a world leader in this, both in their place in Sweden and also in the U.S., where they're going through a very sound environmental practice. As we look at that, this is not about commercial gain; it's about the right thing to do.

Would I like this facility to be right next door? Sure, I would. But that's not the case. It's a unique facility, created for a special purpose, to manage a high volume of these sorts of activities. When we understood exactly what their process looked like—we saw their international standards and the regulations they operate in—it became a credible option for us.

The next thing we had to do was consider how we move these steam generators from their place on Lake Huron to the facility in Sweden. How do we do it safely and responsibly? It was mentioned previously that the regulations are mature in this regard; they're not new regulations created for this purpose. They are regulations that have been in place for a very long time. They are tested regularly, and they are enacted and enforced regularly.

The difference, of course, in this situation is that we cannot fit steam generators into the standard packaging. This has been said already here today, and it was clear in the regulatory hearings. Were it possible to fit a slab steam generator in an approved standard package, that would have occurred and it would have gone. Actually for Bruce Power, the same activities that we undertook would also have occurred.

Moving large components in our community creates the risk of distorting traffic flow and affecting a small rural community. When we embarked on this project, we treated that as being the issue. That was the disruption we were going to create in our community. We treated it in the same way when we moved the new steam generators in. The reason for that was because we were already comfortable that the radioactive nuclides met all of the regulatory standards.

Of course, when you begin that consultation, you run the risk of attracting other attention, for different reasons and different intent. I can tell this committee that our purpose was to look at this triangle of environmental footprint and try to move up the pyramid. That's the right thing to do.

When I talk about our activities, I can say we're obviously not at all immune to the public sentiment. We're not idiots. We know what's happening. We can see a number of important things. Firstly, very responsible elected officials are expressing concern, which is entirely what they're elected to do. It's not just in this room but in every municipality along the route. I have no problem with that—none whatsoever. The problem we do have, and the problem we have run into, is that it's always easier to alarm than it is to inform.

We have tried manfully to inform. We have issued documents like this: “The Right Thing To Do”. We've explained exactly what we do. We have set up websites. We've had mailshots. We've held open house meetings. We have tried our best to deal with those issues. I don't suggest for a moment that we can be everywhere and we can convince every person. I've been in the industry a long time, and I never expect unanimous consent. It will never happen.

The question we have to answer is whether we have done all that's reasonable given the actual intent of our activity.

As I say, if you start on the basis that this is a low-level radioactive activity with marginal risk, then the amount of consultation is affected by that. We have gone far and beyond that as an attempted response to the sentiment.

As I say, I fully understand. Some very well-regarded public figures have expressed concern. I get that. I do understand that. But I would hope—it's always been my hope—that Canadians have comfort in the strong regulatory body that exists. Just because the CNSC agrees with us doesn't mean I've got my hand up their back. It's never been the case, and it never will be the case. A good licensee always needs a strong regulator. It's always been so. It gives the public confidence. It gives us the confidence that we know where the benchmarks are. Good regulations do that for us.

As I say, I can talk at length about the half-life of isotopes, but I don't think I'd be doing a service to the committee. All of those things were fully dealt with in a commission hearing.

I'm very open to answering any questions and concerns that people have. If you want to talk about the science, we can do that too.

I want to reassure you that the basis of what we're doing is grounded in good environmental policy. You could not enact good environmental policy while putting Canadians at risk in the process.

We have reassured ourselves of our ability to seal these steam generators, to characterize them, to transport them, and to deal with them in a responsible way. That's what I believe we were tested on in the regulatory proceedings. I believe we passed that test.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Hawthorne, for your presentation. It was very helpful.

We will start the questioning with Monsieur Coderre, for up to seven minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Hawthorne. Believe me, you don't have an accent at all, so we can understand each other.

There are some questions. Basically you have your permit, so it's not about hitting you with it. You have your permit. But there are some specific questions I'd like to ask about the history of Bruce Power vis-à-vis what it has done in the past, what's going on now, and what will be the future.

With what you just mentioned, we're talking about 64 generators now; we're not just talking about 16. So eventually you will ask for other permits.

My first question is more specific to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission proceedings. It says here that you omitted to talk about plutonium in your demand at the beginning. Why?

4:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Actually, that was discussed at some length. It was simply a transposition error. It wasn't an error in the calculation. It was a transposition between one document and another.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Okay.

4:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

It didn't affect the calculation.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Secondly, you said you've consulted a lot of people, but afterwards.... I don't believe, like Dr. Binder, that there's necessarily a conspiracy theory. You met politicians, mayors, and their role is to represent their people. If they fear some issues, well, this is a first. It's big.

I'd like to go with that first. In 2006, in the beginning, we were not supposed to transport them to eventually be recycled. Now we're talking about going from 16 to 64.

Would it be better for Bruce Power to import the technology and do it in the field, instead of transporting them to Sweden? And why is it not the United States? What was the reason?

4:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

There are probably three questions in there—

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

You can do it, I'm sure.

4:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

—so let me start with the first one.

We did consult, but it was against a framework, as I said earlier, of what we intended to do. Later this commission will hear from mayors in the municipality of our facility, and those people were consulted through many of our normal activities. We went to county council. We explained what we're doing. We asked for advice from their roads engineers in terms of what the best route might be. We asked for assistance in terms of picking the right time that would be of least disruption—and this is really for road transport. You have to remember that we are all engineers and scientists, so we look at this as good science. We meet all the regulatory standards, but we don't want to disrupt our communities. We consult with them more about the movement of large loads through their community. That was the nature of our consultation. I'm sure the mayors themselves will establish that.

Once it became obvious, however, that there were concerns about the shipment itself and the seagoing part of it, then we started to recognize there was a broader communication challenge for us. Frankly, we believed that much of that communication challenge would be met by the pretty unusual, I should say, CNSC one-day hearing, because that wouldn't have been typical either. The nature of the package would have required the signature from a designated officer. I'm not sure that came across particularly in Dr. Binder's presentation, but had it not been for your public sentiment and other things, there would never have been a one-day hearing, which became a two-day hearing. And really, that was in response to this public concern and anxiety, and as I said earlier, I understand that.

You know, we sought to go out and engage people, and the way we did that is we used polling; we did our website. Latterly, to be honest, we used someone who has a better French accent than me and my chief nuclear officer, Norm Sawyer, to go and speak to French-speaking people so that he could explain in a better manner than I could exactly what we're all about. Did we go everywhere? No, we didn't.

In terms of our facility locally, one of the things you have to recognize is there are two groups at work here. Firstly, we don't have enough business in ourselves to create a facility that would manage this, because although you see these large units, there isn't a lot of activity to be dealt with. It's a small amount of work, so it wouldn't be reasonable for someone to set up a business to do that.

Secondly, you're actually not taking the benefit of all of the best practice and industry experience. There is a facility in Sweden that has actually done this for lots of different types of steam generators. It has developed an expertise. So to start again from the beginning would ignore all of that added value.

For those reasons we chose to do this.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I only have two more minutes.

First of all, under chapter 162, under “Security”, it says that for questions linked to the security of the site, the commission received distinct, protected documents that were examined in camera. Without saying specifically what those documents were, what kinds of documents were they?

4:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Well, obviously everything that's done under security in the Nuclear Safety and Control Act is done in camera for obvious reasons, to protect our nuclear installations. But typically, we're asked to provide assurances on what security arrangements are in place for the movement. What security arrangements are in place for road and seaway? What does our emergency plan look like? The emergency plan was more public, but particularly.... You have to remember that one of the issues—and I can say this without breaching any rules—that the whole conversation is about is if any of this material is capable of being recovered and reused in a malicious way. Is there anything like that? Those are the kinds of questions you'd expect to be asked.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Hawthorne, you said, rightfully, that you don't do it on the field because it's a matter of business. So you're an industry. It's a matter of business.

My business is safety. What is the accountability framework to make sure that it will be safe and those transports will be safe? Who are you accountable to?

4:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Yes. Obviously the responsibility for safety throughout is mine. We are the proponent, so Bruce Power has the responsibility for that. We've clearly engaged people who have experience and expertise in those areas, so there are firms that have been engaged to manage the transport. Of course, anyone who knows anything about naval situations will realize the captain of the ship is in control of the ship, but all of the arrangements about the ship, all that has been said about the ship itself, is a—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

So if it sinks, you are the last one, right?

4:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

We still have responsibility for everything. The point I make is that whether or not it's good weather to set sail in, as captain we are responsible. We are the proponent, and we understand our obligations in that regard.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

Madame Brunelle, for up to seven minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you.

Good afternoon gentlemen.

Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Hawthorne, but I think that your nuclear energy generation license requires you to specify the way you dispose of waste. Did you decide from the outset to ship the generators through the Saint Lawrence?

4:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

I believe the question relates to the decommissioning plan for a facility. When you're granted an operating licence in Canada, you also have to deal with the construction, operation, and eventual decommissioning. It's not specific in terms of how you treat the waste. The key part, more often than not, is to produce a plan that talks about how much material will constitute waste: how much of it will be low-level, how much will be intermediate, and how much will be high-level. It seems to me that for fuel we have no long-term solution right now, if I can say that.

The intent of a decommissioning plan is to show a complete story but also to make sure that the costing is properly allocated. As a licensee, we have an obligation to make sure that funding is available. It's a slightly different intent. It doesn't talk about how you take it apart; it's more about what constitutes the plant you will be taking apart and how much it might cost.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Fine. You say that there are two facilities that recycle your type of waste, one in Sweden and the other in the United States. The United States would be a better choice and would avoid you having to ship through the Saint Lawrence. This would suit me down to the ground.

Have you developed a plan B for the disposal of the waste from these generators? Are you shipping through the Saint Lawrence because it is less expensive?

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Sorry, I should have explained that Studsvik has two facilities. I was trying to explain their international reputation. The facility in the U.S. is not equipped to do this activity. They have different business streams. The facility in the U.S. does not do separation of steam generators, etc. Sweden is the only place for that activity.

As I said before, we use the St. Lawrence Seaway. The route is chosen because it's the only credible route to Sweden.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

What about insurance for this type of shipment? Not that there will be the slightest incident because you will not be shipping through the Saint Lawrence. Nevertheless, I would like to know what these policies cover and how much they cost. What are your obligations on this front?

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Yes, we do. One of the approvals for this vessel includes that they have regulatory approvals, and maintaining adequate insurance is a part of that. Effectively the insurance is taken out by the company that does the work. We, of course, have to pay the premiums for that as part of the cost. Part of their regulatory approval is also contingent on them maintaining good standing with their insurance to deal with a bounded hazard.

If you remember earlier, it was mentioned that this ship is insured for handling spent nuclear fuel. To give you an idea of what the difference is, this ship is rated—I don't want to use jargon, but I can tell you orders of magnitude—to carry two-million terabecquerels of radiation. That's two million terabecquerels. This steam generator package, for all of them, is five million. It's many orders of magnitude less than what the ship is rated to deal with.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

The vessel is just one aspect of the issue. However, it takes 10 years to train a pilot to navigate this highly difficult waterway. Part of the reason it is so challenging is because it is so narrow. This type of shipment raises concerns. I imagine that you are aware of this fact and that you will be using an officially-licensed Saint Lawrence pilot.

I have another question. You require authorization from the United States, the United Kingdom and Denmark for this initiative. Have you obtained this?

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bruce Power

Duncan Hawthorne

Of course, the first approval is the one that we received from CNSC. That forms the basis of our request of others. So yes, we have applied. We're in the application process as necessary. There are a number of approvals that we require in stages. For example, the road transport one can only be applied for 30 days before you plan to actually move. We need the CNSC one; that's the prime one, after which we use that licence to then go to the Department of Transport in the U.S. and so on. So there's a cascade effect.