Evidence of meeting #12 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ramsey Hart  Co-manager, Canada Program, MiningWatch Canada
Pierre Gratton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
Rick Meyers  Vice-President, Technical and Northern Affairs, Mining Association of Canada

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

Public geoscience is one of the most fundamental building blocks of any minerals economy, to be honest. It is one of the things that will influence a company's desire to invest in the jurisdiction. I say public geoscience; it's the first phase of work to try to identify where the minerals are.

In northern Canada in particular, most of the territories have not been mapped at all from a geological perspective. It was actually this current government that relaunched some renewed geomapping with geoscience funding for northern Canada a few years ago, which was a long time coming and way overdue. I think 80% of Nunavut was considered unmapped, and now we're starting to make some real headway.

The way we would put it in simple terms is that finding an exploration project that will become a mine is like finding a needle in a haystack. For every 1,000 exploration plays, one of those might become a mine. In the north of Canada, we don't know where the haystacks are. Geoscience allows us to identify those haystacks. It allows us to say, here's a zone that has some identifiable copper; you might want to go and explore there to see whether there's enough of it to make a mine.

That's what the preliminary mapping does, so it is vitally important. It's been Canada's advantage for years, but through the deficit-cutting years of the 1990s we scaled back a lot of that funding, to the point that we were losing some of our competitive edge. Now we're starting to regain it.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Are you able to name some of the successful projects that benefited directly from this public geomapping?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

I can give you a really good example. It comes from British Columbia. In this case it was a provincial program, but it illustrates the point. I used to work in B.C. until recently; that's why it's familiar to me.

There is an operating mine, Huckleberry Mine, which is a copper-gold mine that has been operating for some 11 or 12 years. It was scheduled to close this past spring. As a result of some geological mapping in the area, they were able to identify additional resources on their mine site property that they weren't aware of that are going to extend that mine for another 11 to 12 years.

So the expenditure of a few hundred thousand dollars is going to extend the mine life for 11 years and provide direct employment for 400 people every year and a lot of spinoffs in royalties to government. There's a huge payback just from that one example of geoscience spending.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Lizon.

We go now to the New Democratic Party, to Monsieur Gravelle and, if there's time, Monsieur Lapointe.

4 p.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

I'm splitting my time with Mr. Stewart.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Oh, you're sharing with Mr. Stewart. All right.

4 p.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

This question is for Mr. Hart.

I notice that you mentioned the Ring of Fire in your presentation. We've brought up before the lack of proper legal consultation with aboriginal people, and at this time I'd like to recognize Chief Gagnon, who is at the back of the room and whom I met with earlier today.

It is very important that we hear from the first nations during this study. I met with the chief of Neskantaga First Nation, Peter Moonias, this morning. He said that the Ring of Fire has some of the world's biggest chromite deposits and will play a huge role in the Canadian and world economy for decades. The chiefs made it very clear that they're not opposed to this mine and that they welcome the opportunities for economic development and co-management.

They do have some serious concerns about the environment and the lack of proper consultation. CEAA is carrying out a comprehensive EA study, but the chiefs wanted a joint review panel environmental assessment, which allows more time for community consultation and consultations with first nations with a longer time permitted.

Duty to consult is in the Canadian Constitution Act 1982, section 35. CEAA had said they would agree to a joint review panel assessment if there were any of three conditions. The conditions were: significant adverse effects to the environment; significant public concern; infringement on aboriginal treaty rights.

Can you comment on this?

4:05 p.m.

Co-manager, Canada Program, MiningWatch Canada

Ramsey Hart

Thank you for the question.

All three of those conditions are met over and over again for this project. It's a project in a remote area of Ontario where there currently are no permanent roads. There's no permanent rail line. It's a complex ecological area on the edge of the world's third largest wetland, the Hudson Bay Lowlands.

It's a core area to woodland caribou, which is a primary conservation concern. It's complex socially, given the number of first nations that are potentially affected by it. It is exactly the kind of project one envisions a review panel process being conducted on. From my position, the first nations have continued to be incredibly reasonable in their demands to have a process that they agree to develop for review of the project. I think it's a real shame that their reasonableness has been returned by ignoring their requests.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Stewart, you have about four minutes.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thanks very much.

Thank you to the presenters today.

I have a question for the Mining Association of Canada. You say you have 36 full members. I'm wondering how many of those are Canadian-owned companies. I'm trying to get a sense of the structure of your organization.

4:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

To be honest, off the top of my head, I don't know the answer. A good number of them.

We do have as members some of the major multinationals you've heard of, Xstrata and Valley, but we also have Teck, and we have a number of...IAMGOLD, Inmet, Barrick. There's a range of major Canadian producers as well, as well as a lot of smaller companies.

Certainly more than half are Canadian-owned.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Okay. That's good enough. Thanks very much.

I've been talking to some folks about temporary foreign workers, and I see in your slide here you say there are about 300,000 employees, but you're talking about the whole mining industry. I'm wondering about the role a temporary foreign workforce plays in your member companies, at least the section of the industry you're representing.

4:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

Outside of Alberta, which has made more use of that, at this point, I'll be honest, not a lot. We think there's the potential for it to become very important in the future. We face a major human resources shortage right now. We have one of the oldest workforces in the country. It's partly our own fault. We went through a very difficult decade in the 1990s and we weren't attracting a lot of people to the industry, so there's a big gap in our sector between those over 40 and those under 30. There aren't a lot of 30- to 45-year-olds. We're facing a real crunch.

Over the past number of years, our focus has been on increasing aboriginal participation, getting more youth into schools, getting youth more interested in mining, and also increasing the participation of women. We have also recognized that foreign workers may also become a necessary solution if we're going to be able to operate some of these mines.

India and China produce more college graduates than the United States and Europe combined, so it's going to become a reality that we may need to look to those countries to help fill some of the spots if we can't find them here.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Can you elaborate on what kind of role temporary foreign workers play now in the companies you represent?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

It can vary. I don't have a lot of detail.

The shortages are across all categories of worker, whether it's an engineer, a geologist, or a truck driver. It's everything.

I think a lot of the foreign workers have tended to be more on the professional level, but going forward it could be broader than that. It will depend. The best solution is to train and hire our workers here, but if we have gaps and the choice becomes being able to open a mine or not, I think we'll want to look elsewhere.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

A quick question for Mr. Hart.

We've heard a lot about how you represent communities that are pushing back against various mines, or at least making them fit better with the community. I'm wondering if you would recommend some mining projects. I'm learning about this industry, so is there an interaction with the community that would be worth studying in terms of best practice?

4:10 p.m.

Co-manager, Canada Program, MiningWatch Canada

Ramsey Hart

In terms of a northern example, I think the QIA, which is one of three Inuit regional organizations, is following a really strong process for the Baffinland project. They've had adequate funding to resource local communities, to host meetings, and discuss projects. The QIA is submitting some really comprehensive briefs to the Nunavut Impact Review Board, so that would be one example I would point to.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Okay, thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart.

We go now to Mr. McGuinty, for up to seven minutes, please.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here, gentlemen. Mr. Gratton, it's good to see you again.

Mr. Gratton, I've been asking a series of probative questions of witnesses who are here as to how this overall study of northern Canada fits in with the Government of Canada's promises to reduce greenhouse gases by a certain percentage, 17% by 2020.

I want to start by congratulating your sector and you for actually referring to and putting in your deck greenhouse gas emissions, in your environmental performance quotation. Thank you for doing that, and thank you for the leadership you and your sector are showing in this regard.

Can you tell Canadians who might be following or reading this transcript.... You talk about the wonderful contributions made domestically by your members: 300,000 employees, $8.4 billion in taxes, $20 billion in capital invested annually—all very important stuff—and being major contributors to clean technology sectors. But you left out what the contribution to Canadian greenhouse gases of your members is on an annual basis.

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Pierre Gratton

Do I include the oil sands or not? We're at about 2%, not including the oil sands. Of course, it's quite a bit bigger when you include the oil sands.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

You're saying that the sector in Canada contributes about 2%.

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Okay. That's terrific.

Are your member companies, the larger companies, the more progressive companies, now reporting to their shareholders in their...whatever they want to call them—corporate social responsibility reports is one title, or environmental performance reports? Are they now regularly disclosing to investors what their GHG performance is?