Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2011

[Pierre Gratton]

We as an association have been reporting member company GHG emissions for over a decade, and on a site basis too, not just an aggregate basis. We also have, as part of Towards Sustainable Mining, a specific performance indicator dealing with greenhouse gas management, and members report on that. It is subject, as I mentioned earlier, to external verification as well. So there are some definite drivers within the industry.

I would say that the larger facilities do better than the smaller ones. Energy is a huge input cost for the industry. So for smelters, we've seen an overall net reduction—not just on a per unit basis, but an actual total net reduction—in greenhouse gases from our smelters over the past, say, 15 years.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Hearing your testimony, you and I would probably agree—many of us would agree at this table—that greenhouse gases are not merely a sort of marginalized environmental issue. They're pretty much mainstream economic, aren't they?

[Pierre Gratton]

If you're an energy-intensive industry like ours, there are a lot of built-in incentives to reduce your greenhouse gases, because really you're reducing your costs.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So greenhouse gas reduction is really all about energy efficiency, isn't it?

[Pierre Gratton]

It is mostly, yes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Let me ask you, then, about one of the things I've also been searching for. I take at face value the government's promise that it's going to reduce GHGs by 17% in the next eight and a half years. We've walked away from the previous sets of targets; we'll be paying penalties in this regard internationally. But when you set out with your members to achieve certain reductions, are you working within the larger context?

I guess the question I have for you is, do you have a copy of the plan the government has prepared and that has a direct bearing on your sector in terms of reducing by 17% by 2020?

[Pierre Gratton]

At this point, our drivers are mostly internal. In Canada as a whole—not the federal government or the provinces—there are mixed signals. It's an uncertain policy climate and has been for a number of years.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So if we take the federal—

[Pierre Gratton]

But independent of that, it's an issue that even at the global level, the International Council on Mining and Metals has been very engaged on, climate change policy issues. They have a statement. So it's an issue that—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No doubt, but I'm just trying to look at the Canadian context, for this overall northern development study that we're pursuing here.

Mr. Harper gave a foundational speech in London some five years ago. It was his first big speech in Europe. He called it the energy superpower speech, in which he said that by 2014 to 2016 he was going to be pricing carbon dioxide emissions at $65 to $67 a tonne.

What kind of bearing would that have on your sector? What kind of bearing would it have on investment in the north? How are you preparing for the $67 per tonne charge?

[Pierre Gratton]

I'd be speculating to give you a precise answer.

I'll go back to what I said earlier. Just as there's a built-in incentive to reduce energy, because it's a major cost, and therefore reduce greenhouse gas emissions, a price on carbon can also be a disincentive to investment, potentially. But the issue of carbon taxes or a cap and trade.... For us it's important that any approach be international in scope, because you can disadvantage one jurisdiction against another, potentially.

I come from B.C., where there is a carbon tax. They've tried—not, I would say, with complete success—to make it revenue-neutral. It hasn't been to such an extent that it has put B.C. at any kind of disadvantage relative to other provinces, but the risk is there. Any government that pursues this has to do so very carefully.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I just need to get a really clear answer, though.

[Pierre Gratton]

I don't think I'm going to give you a clear answer, because you have a very precise question that I don't have the answer to.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. Just let me know...if you don't have an answer to this, I just need to hear it again: you can't produce for our committee here a copy of a comprehensive plan for greenhouse gas reductions that have a direct bearing on your sector and that supports or underpins the government's 17% commitment to reduce emissions by 2020?

[Pierre Gratton]

No, not at this point; I don't have something with me, no.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. Here is a last question for you.

Has your sector quantified the magnitude of economic opportunity that exists in Canada and globally for precisely the kind of clean technology and energy efficiency technology that many of your member companies are devising? The mining sector in Canada is very well known internationally, with major players and lots of wealth to be had. Have you looked at all at how much money we can make by devising technologies and exporting them globally to reduce greenhouse gases?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It will have to be a very brief answer.

[Pierre Gratton]

That's not our business line. We produce commodities; we don't necessarily produce the commodities.... There is research under way to develop more energy-efficient mills in Canada; there's research at UBC, for example. When we do that, the technology ends up being used and exported, but it's not typically owned, necessarily, by the industry; it's owned by those who develop it at universities and so on. But there is work going on in that area, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. McGuinty, in terms of your request of the witness for information on the greenhouse gas plan, that's something that would be better asked I think at the environment committee. I don't expect witnesses would come prepared to provide it at this committee.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't really want to enter into a public debate now, with witnesses, but I think it would be important for us to have.

This is the second time that you refer to questions I've asked of witnesses as more deservedly, you say, placed at the environment committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Exactly.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

With all due respect, sir, I think you're wrong, and I'm prepared to have that debate and discussion with you and other members of the committee at any time. We can enter into it now, but I think it would be important for us to make very clear where the beginning, the middle, and the end of the questions that can be posed by members actually is. I don't subscribe to the view that I think you may have—I don't know—or that other members may have, that an exploration of Canada's northern development potential must not, by necessity, embrace climate change.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could we have this discussion at a later time, so that we don't take up too much time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I agree. We have to get on with the questioning.

We have nine minutes left. That's three minutes for each of the next three questioners.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, can we just now schedule a time for this discussion? I don't want to have to deal with interruptions again on issues that I believe to be probative and important with respect to this study.